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Gathered Up:  Bible Study "Having a Real Relationship With God"  |
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smiley
True Blue Farmgirl
650 Posts
lea
pea ridge
arkansas
USA
650 Posts |
 Posted - May 27 2012 : 7:50:47 PM
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| I am curious on your takes of Heb.6:4-6 and how that relates to this topic |
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Ninibini
True Blue Farmgirl
7577 Posts
Nini
Pennsylvania
USA
7577 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2012 : 07:10:05 AM
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Wow... That's a good one, Lea. You know, at first glance, it almost looks like there is no "70 times 7" forgiveness there, but then when you really meditate on the words, you see that the person discussed really is someone who has fully matured in the Lord... someone whose experience with God fully encompasses everything one can receive and achieve. Think of this person as someone like Abraham or Noah or Moses - so close to God, so fully to have known him that this person has "experienced the powers of the coming age." I would say that this person would probably have been experiencing God as fully as any human being could before our death and resurrection. This person isn't a child growing in God, as we are; this would be someone fully mature in Him. We're not talking about a mere backslider here at all. A person who has had that kind of knowledge before God really would be disgracing God and crucifying Christ all over again. We, however, are works in progress, and are on a path to reaching that kind of grace. The potential is there, but we have not yet reached our full potential. This person, however, has. When you think about it, you have to wonder that perhaps it's almost impossible that ANY person could achieve that kind of "completeness" in their lifetime... Perhaps, therefore, we really cannot come to the point where we cannot receive the forgiveness of God - it's simply impossible, because we cannot receive full awareness and understanding of Him in our humanity. Further, that sure should open our eyes and make us extremely cautious about who we follow.
Hebrews Ch. 5 really talks about how we can think we are so advanced in God, and yet really miss the message. When we should be on solid food for as far as we have come, we find that, in reality, we are not yet close to being weaned off of milk - we are still babies, because, in effect, we continually trip up in our human wisdom rather than allowing the Holy Spirit to fully guide us to God's truth. Vs. 11 - 13: "11 On this subject we have many things to say, and they are difficult to explain because you have grown so slow at understanding. 12 Indeed, when you should by this time have become masters, you need someone to teach you all over again the elements of the principles of God's sayings; you have gone back to needing milk, and not solid food. 13 Truly, no one who is still living on milk can digest the doctrine of saving justice, being still a baby. 14 Solid food is for adults with minds trained by practice to distinguish between good and bad." (New Jerusalem version) Now when you read 6:4-6 in light of this passage, you can see that the author (Paul?) really almost wants us to know that we are really not anywhere near as far along as we think... but IF we were, and IF we were to fall away at that point, then truly there would be no hope.
Another way of looking at it is that Paul(?) might have been speaking of someone like the fallen Apostle of Judas, who had so intimately known Christ, who had so fully received all of the gifts and privileges that Christ had given him, and yet who fell away because he had his own agenda in mind vs. submitting to Christ's. It's not about what we think or what we want, but rather about what God thinks and God wants. And the "helper" or Holy Spirit is our Gift Who guides us in all matters. The Bible talks about how Christ, who even though a son, learned obedience through suffering (Hebrews 5:8)... that, again means giving up of self (for, who ever gave up more of Himself in His humanity, than Christ!) to do the Will of God ("...not My will, but Yours be done." Luke 22:42). Judas could not bring himself, although fully in communion with Christ on every level, to deny his own will, to submit to Jesus and trust him. He tried to "move things along" in the way he saw fit, and he betrayed Him in order to get what he wanted... Does that make sense at all? So, I'm thinking Paul may have been referring to someone who has that same fullness of knowledge, understanding, communion with and relationship with Christ in Hebrews 6:4-6, rather than your average Christian who is still in the process of weaning from milk to solid food. That is not to say that we do not eat a little bit of solids, or that we do not receive the gifts... But I think once we do taste of the solids, just as a baby, we long for more. But we are still babies - we can't handle a full meal yet, and when we try to walk, we stumble and even sometimes sit there and refuse to move anymore. That's not the same as falling away - it's just falling, and He picks us up and helps us along. Our maturation is a process of crawling, walking and then running with Christ, and that takes a lot longer than we think. And even though many feel they have "arrived" and have it, they truly have not. If they did, I would tend to think that this passage definitely warns us to be careful not to fall away, because we can definitely lose our salvation.
Even moreso, think of the Angels, and those who fell... most notably Satan himself. I don't think I need to explain how intimate their knowledge of God is and how great the trust and responsibilities that were bestowed upon them. And yet they turned away..."fell." There is no more hope of salvation for them.
Having said ALL of that, I still maintain that our sins still are a slap in the face to Christ, whom we love, whether we intend to do it or not. The effects of our sins - which occur after Christ's suffering, death and resurrection - were something He suffered for during His Passion. God is not subject to time - past, present or future. So what we do now, I truly believe effects His suffering, and I think we should be as mindful of that as possible. When I sin now, it's usually not a purposeful sin - it's just something that happens out of my human nature. But when it does - oh! - it makes me heartsick, and I pray and try to bless Him in some way (in other words, I try to put a spiritual salve on the wound I have caused Him). Sometimes we sin without even knowing it (which is why I have to say that the fallen believer Paul(?) speaks of cannot truly exist, for, if he did, he would always know when he was wrong and under sin), but usually our sin is revealed to us at some point and we are still under God's mercy in Christ and He forgives us. The "fully illuminated" believer would not have accidentally sinned - he would have knowingly committed the sin, thus crucifying Christ over again and making a mockery of him in public. For if you truly believe in and fully, fully understand what you profess about Christ and who He is, how can you blatantly deny Him in your life? To do so would turn so many away from Him - you would, in effect, be damning others by your witness in not living for Him (think of Eli the Priest and his sons and the effect their behavior must have had to the people. So sad. People probably talked about them behind their back and even the most unbelieving would have recognized that they were, at the very least, hypocrites. When someone professes to believe something and is in the position of leadership, especially, when their actions speak louder than their words and they live outside of what they profess, it turns people away!). We see the author refer to this in Hebrews 6: 7-8.
Then when we continue on in the passage into Hebrews 6:9, we read, "But you, my dear friends -- in spite of what we have just said, we are sure you are in a better state and ON THE WAY to salvation." (Emphasis mine.) 6:10 - 12 "10 God would not be so unjust as to forget all you have done, the love that you have for his name or the services you have done, and are still doing, for the holy people of God. 11 Our desire is that every one of you should go on showing the same enthusiasm till the ultimate fulfillment of your hope, 12 never growing careless, but taking as your model those who by their faith and perseverance are heirs of the promises." We are not on par with the angels, nor the Apostles... we are "on our way" to that completeness, but we're not there. I think any father - even most of all our Heavenly Father - expects us to fall and backslide a little bit. The main thing is that we move forward... When we fall, no matter how or how bad, we turn back to Him, seek Him and He will set us on the straight and narrow path again. He LOVES us. We are His children. He will never leave nor forsake us, but He sends the Holy Spirit as our Helper and Guide.
I truly believe with all my heart, Lea, that we are not the people the author speaks of in this passage who fall away and lose their salvation. We are not nearly where we would need to be to have that happen. Bless the Lord, He probably protects us from ourselves far in advance from ever getting to that point. But, I surely will strive to live my life for His sake - amen?! Amen!
Love to you, sisters in Christ - Oh, how we love Him!!! Praise His Holy Name!!!
Nini
Farmgirl Sister #1974
God gave us two hands... one to help ourselves, and one to help others!
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Edited by - Ninibini on May 29 2012 07:18:21 AM |
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smiley
True Blue Farmgirl
650 Posts
lea
pea ridge
arkansas
USA
650 Posts |
Posted - May 29 2012 : 7:40:25 PM
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| Isnt this good stuff? I agree but was thinking of Peter also walking with him as was Judas yet he repented and went on to do great things. God already knows our choices even though He allows us to make them. Good research and answer Nini. Thank you. It was something that was said also in 6:1 we could be spinning our wheels so to speak if we dont get past that infant stage you speak of and grow up and get to work for the kingdom of God. |
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Ninibini
True Blue Farmgirl
7577 Posts
Nini
Pennsylvania
USA
7577 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2012 : 07:25:48 AM
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Oh! Excellent point! I hadn't considered that! Like I said, God's yesterday, today and tomorrow are all the same, so it really does make sense that he would know Peter's heart even before Peter understood himself. But Peter didn't really fall away, I don't believe. He was afraid, and he did deny Christ out of fear, but I don't think he ever stopped loving Christ. He wasn't trying to force an issue for his own agenda, as was Judas, you know? Judas didn't think of God first, he thought of his own desires. And when he couldn't get the Sanhedrin to take the money back, he took his own life. If you think about it, it's kind of like he believed the priests were his salvation vs. God in Christ being his salvation. Despite all he knew and how intimately he knew Christ, he simply didn't truly believe or have faith in him. He believed an agenda. When the priests told him his conscience was his own problem, he lost all hope. If only he had trusted in God. Forgiveness was right there. Right there. After all, he had been chosen to do what he did. Even though it was utterly horrible, if he had repented, God would have had mercy and forgiven. So sad. Maybe that's the key - there is no repentance on the part of one who has fallen away. They just think they know better than God, or, as my Church teaches, they don't believe He can do what He says He can do - the ultimate sin. We are not greater than He is, in ANY respect. Once we believe our sin is greater than His mercy, we're doomed. Once we believe we know more than He does, we're doomed. Once we believe our decision is better than His, we are doomed. But once we turn to Him, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and cleanses us from all unrighteousness so that we can be with Him forever. It's so simple. Boggles the mind how simple it is. Almost "unbelievable," huh? But isn't that the ultimate snare in which Satan wants to capture us? Satan will employ whatever it takes to keep us from His love.
Yes, I get what you're saying about spinning our wheels... I think we all get stuck at sometime in our walk, don't you? I know I have!
No research on that one, Lea, honest. Everyone always thinks I research, but I don't really do that a lot. Sometimes, but not a lot. I read the Bible. I've read it through once, and then I go back through the passages over and over and over. I try to read a little bit each night before bed, or in the early morning when my hubby leaves for work, or when I can't sleep. Usually when I can't sleep, it's a signal to me that the Lord is prompting me to pray about something, and Scripture sometimes reveals to me exactly what it is. Each time I read the Bible, I learn something new and draw closer to His heart. I love that. I also used to listen to Scripture verse memory tapes years ago, and they really stuck. I may not always remember the specific Scriptures, but I do remember the Words. <Usually the research I do is trying to locate the specific Scripture to quote it so that people can look it up for themselves. ;) > I also have learned a lot through church and Bible studies. I do pray and meditate on things a lot, too. God reveals so much to us through prayer and in quiet time - He is amazing. I'm not saying He always speaks to me - please, I'd never be so brazen! Sometimes it's just easy to put two and two together. Anyhow, it just really helps sometimes to read the Scriptures surrounding the Scripture you're pondering... Taking it out of context sometimes can really pose a dilemma and get us into trouble, you know? I try to be really careful about that. I'm just praying that the Lord guides me so that I never lead anyone astray.
Have a blessed day!
Nini
Farmgirl Sister #1974
God gave us two hands... one to help ourselves, and one to help others!
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buffypuff
True Blue Farmgirl
1183 Posts
Claudia
Deer Park
WA
USA
1183 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2012 : 1:38:41 PM
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I've been busy out in the yard and preparing for my repair of the roof, granddtr's HS graduation and taking care of my daughter postoperatively in about 2 weeks. BUSY...but I read with great interest the questions of Heb.6:4-6. Nini..you really are a wonder as I think many read over these things and push on because it is so hard a question. Lea, you opened the box. I can't say that I disagree with anything said. I think that Paul also could have been writing to a specific problem needing addressing, that we only get half of the situation. We must remember he was writing to the Hebrews...the ones who had the prophets of old. Their life with God was identified more with doing works than accepting salvation at the hands of the Jew they had condemned. I believe Paul was trying to tell them..do not go back to the old ways...accept salvation and move on. I do not believe we lose our salvation. It is a gift from God at the hands of sacrificing His Son Jesus. It was done once and for all for all folks if they choose the gift of salvation. It cannot be earned only accepted. In doing that we have become accepted...not acceptable in that we can do enough to earn it. The Holy Spirit was promised as an Advocate, a Teacher, a Helper on our walking out of our salvation Philipians 2: 12. To me, accepting salvation is like allowing us to get on the road, and if we don't, we just don't get on. The road is offered to all, but sometimes people just don't make it to the entrance of that road. We must obey God's words to continue on our journey, but the off ramp is not there for us automatically to fall off because we sin. Nini talked about baby and mature Christians...all bound for our heavenly reward, but as we mature we understand many more things in our walk. I hope you can read between the lines, because I have this concept, but I can't seem to make this clear as I write..even to myself. Hope you can get something out of this. Blessings....must go mow.
Buffypuff/ Claudia ~ Farmgirl Sister #870 @}~~
"God sends no one away empty except those who are full of themselves." DL Moody
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Edited by - buffypuff on May 30 2012 1:42:12 PM |
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Ninibini
True Blue Farmgirl
7577 Posts
Nini
Pennsylvania
USA
7577 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2012 : 5:25:33 PM
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Oh, Claudia! I guess I have been out of the loop! I'm so sorry! I didn't realize you have been going through so much! How is your daughter doing? I hope and pray she is well. You've been a very busy lady, I'm sure! We all understand. Just remember to take time out to take care of YOU, too! I'll be praying for you all! Congratulations to your granddaughter, too! How exciting! So many exciting things to come! God bless her!
I think you said it all very, VERY well. I hadn't thought about this passage as being Paul(?) speaking to the Hebrews - duh! LOL! Sometimes I can't see the forest for the trees. Very good point! I think you're spot on about us not being able to lose our salvation... because in order to lose it, we'd have to have it. If we walk away from God in the way Paul(?) describes, then truly did we ever have it? I'd have to say we probably didn't have it, even if we thought we did. Then again, what if we start with a little faith and then just walk away, never giving Him another thought? We see it all the time. Doesn't what we do after we "accept" Him matter? I have to believe it does. What if we "accept" Him, but then later never read the Scripture, never pray, never change our selfish ways, sin like it's our first nature, live as if He doesn't matter or as if He doesn't exist, never do anything that remotely resembles the work of His Holy Spirit within us... Are we still saved? I don't know... that just doesn't seem correct to me. Then AGAIN, I guess a person who really lives their life in that way never really did "have it" to begin with, huh?
Thank God He's a profoundly merciful, loving Father who is long suffering and steadfast. We would simply perish without Him! I think of all the people along the way who have taken the time to speak to me about Him, to minister to me, to pray for me, to ensure that I know Him and understand His love for me... those who took time to guide my hand into His hand, and my heart into His heart. Simply amazing. God's heart really does long for us. I can't even imagine where I would be without all the loving children of God who gave of themselves and of our God to me they way they did... and still do, for that matter! I am truly blessed; truly grateful. Please know I joyfully count all of you in these blessings, as well!
Hugs -
Nini
Farmgirl Sister #1974
God gave us two hands... one to help ourselves, and one to help others!
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buffypuff
True Blue Farmgirl
1183 Posts
Claudia
Deer Park
WA
USA
1183 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2012 : 10:11:12 PM
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Well, I think God knows our heart and if we have accepted His salvation or...? I think of the story of the Prodigal Son who took his share of the inheritance before his father had died. He walked away...supposedly not having a father, brother home or anything calling him a son. He most certaily led the life of debauchery and it is said ate the left overs of the swine...which definately was not kosher. When he had hit bottom, he was coming back (it is never too late)as a servant, not a son. It is the Father's mercy that accepted him way down the road..not waiting for him to prove that all his ducks were in a row. To me, the Hebrews had always proved they were good by tithing, fasting, praying beating their chest etc...all those goodies. Paul tried to reinforce what Jesus had said about the Prodigal. We can't earn it..it has been handed to us as a gift. If we are His, His hand is not so short that he cannot save.Isaiah 59:1. The chapter goes on to talk about the wickedness of the enemy but finishes with... 21“As for Me, this is My covenant with them,” says the LORD: “My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring’s offspring,” says the LORD, “from now and forever.”
He is always there to hear our groans, our admonishions... that we cannot do anything without His help and the Holy Spirit. It does not give us license to do as we wish, but God has a way of guiding us with His rod and His staff.
As for my daughter, her surgery will be 2 days after Corinna's graduation. I will get to be nurse to my daughter until she can do things herself. We all have our bumps in the road, and we have a few ahead of us, but we know who knows the way to make it easier. Thank you for your prayers.
Buffypuff/ Claudia ~ Farmgirl Sister #870 @}~~
"God sends no one away empty except those who are full of themselves." DL Moody
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smiley
True Blue Farmgirl
650 Posts
lea
pea ridge
arkansas
USA
650 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2012 : 8:00:55 PM
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| I was just thinking about the title of this study. Having a real relationship with God. Isnt that special? Isnt sad that so many choose not to for whatever reason? They are missing so much. |
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buffypuff
True Blue Farmgirl
1183 Posts
Claudia
Deer Park
WA
USA
1183 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2012 : 9:19:57 PM
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Many fill the void fo God with other things. They may never give God a chance. Will be moving on if there are no other comments.
Buffypuff/ Claudia ~ Farmgirl Sister #870 @}~~
"God sends no one away empty except those who are full of themselves." DL Moody
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erowease
True Blue Farmgirl
294 Posts
Lesley
Edmonds
wa
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - Jun 04 2012 : 8:23:29 PM
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Love reading the comments. I struggle with the idea if through Christ our sins are forgiven, why do we talk about the day of judgement?
I know as I walk with Christ my awareness of my sins become greater and I think there will be lessons to learn throughout the remainder of my life. I think though that each time I ask for forgiveness there is something I have learned that helps me get closer in my relationship. It is a slippery slope if you start committing sins and not get right with God. I think the key is to always keep your eyes fixed to the light of God that is in your soul. Satan is always willing and waiting if you falter, but if you keep your eyes to the light God will help you stand back up, brush off your knees and give you a big hug.
Just some thoughts
Lesley
#2950
"I see God in the eyes of every child...every life is precious to God, whatever the circumstances." Mother Teresa |
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buffypuff
True Blue Farmgirl
1183 Posts
Claudia
Deer Park
WA
USA
1183 Posts |
Posted - Jun 05 2012 : 10:36:21 AM
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Lesley, thank you for your comment. I realize that even with my husband, if I ignore an issue, there is a gardol shield that I put up between me and Dan. It is important to always keep our path clear. And yes, there is always that pitfall that could send us down the slope. I think a study of what we do to keep on track might be helpful and interesting.
On another note, as I read through my last post, i see that my fingers no longer hit the keys I think they are. Would you please excuse my errors. One thing that I know contributes to it is my left eye cataract. Must get it taken care of before winter. My right eye is good, but I don't think I spell check like I once used to, and I don't think this program has one. No excuse, but I find 67 sometimes has its drawbacks. Blessings to you all.
Buffypuff/ Claudia ~ Farmgirl Sister #870 @}~~
"God sends no one away empty except those who are full of themselves." DL Moody
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buffypuff
True Blue Farmgirl
1183 Posts
Claudia
Deer Park
WA
USA
1183 Posts |
Posted - Jun 10 2012 : 5:13:20 PM
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We have seen that relationships are based on truth, knowledge and honesty. The penalty for sin...offense agaist God is death, but because of God's great love for us, he offered His only Son, Jesus to satisfy that penalty. He has died for our sins if we accept what is taught in the Bible as truth. But who was Jesus that He could pay for all sin and how do we know that His death paid the price? I'm sure there have been times, maybe hard times in our life when we may have doubted those very words. We will look at several passages that talk about this subject. But first, in order to take our place for sins against God we must consider a few things. No matter what we could do...as finite humans..we could never make up for an offense against the "All Mighty." One would have to be free from sin. If He was born into sin or committed sin, He would be no better than we all. He would be in the same boat as we are...knowing that the wages of sin are death.
Now for the scriptures:
Romans 5:12
Matt. 1:18-23
Heb. 2:14-15
Heb 10:4-10
There are more, but let's see what we think about some of these scriptures. May the blessings of the Word give you Life....
Buffypuff/ Claudia ~ Farmgirl Sister #870 @}~~
"God sends no one away empty except those who are full of themselves." DL Moody
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smiley
True Blue Farmgirl
650 Posts
lea
pea ridge
arkansas
USA
650 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2012 : 05:18:58 AM
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| I'm not sure where you are headed with this. Only the unblemished where used for sacrifice. Jesus being God yet in the form of man was tempted with sin but never gave into sin the bible tells us. Therefore He was the perfect sacrifice as Heb 10:10 says that "sanctifies" us. |
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Ninibini
True Blue Farmgirl
7577 Posts
Nini
Pennsylvania
USA
7577 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2012 : 07:23:56 AM
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Claudia - Are you questioning how Jesus, born of a woman and, therefore, a descendant of Adam, could be fully human and "under sin" on the one hand, yet because He is God's son he is also fully divine and without sin on the other (and, therefore, as both, He is the perfect sacrifice to expiate all our sins)? OR are you asking how His sacrifice truly could pay for all our sin? I have ideas to answer both, but like Leah, I'm not sure what you're asking or what you're getting at with this? I'm sorry!!! :) Please bear with me if I'm off course with my response.
Jesus was not sinful, although He was born under the curse of sin. He never sinned; He is God Incarnate - The Pure Sacrifice. As a matter of fact, the Catholic Church tradition - as well as the teachings of the Fathers of the Church - maintains that Mary was conceived without sin (the Immaculate Conception), and therefore the perfect Holy Vessel - the perfect "Ark of the New Covenant" - that nurtured, carried and brought forth, raised, cared for, and fully loved the Son of God. Because God cannot be tainted by sin, this had to be so. (LONG discussion - just giving the gist.) However, still being physical descendants of Adam (Mary's SPIRIT being "full of Grace" as described/testified to/witnessed/spoken by the angel Gabriel at the Annunciation; Jesus being THE Son of God can only be pure in Spirit.), they were still both physically born under the curse of original sin, though sinless. The New Adam and the New Eve who obey God.
The Old Testament sacrifice for sin was only a precursor, or foreshadowing, of the True Sacrifice to come, which God Himself provided, and which only God Himself could have provided, as He is Perfect. Nothing of Him is tainted. It simply cannot be. We, in our humanity, could never provide the perfect sacrifice, because we are sinful in nature and imperfect due to that sinful nature. Neither Mary, Full of Grace, the Holy Vessel, The Ark of the New Covenant, who had to be pure and sinless for the sake of God's Son, nor God's Son Himself, were of sinful nature. God prepared Mary especially for Christ - she was unique above all creatures, and Christ is God Himself Incarnate! "No one is like you, O LORD..." Jeremiah 10:6a.
So, yes, sometimes, from our human, sinful, frail perspective, it really is hard to comprehend, imagine or believe that such a One could ever exist and could ever truly remove all our sins... But it's not what we think or feel that matters. "Facts are facts," as they would say - God really did this for us! Alleliujah! Praise His Holy Name! The "believing" comes by faith... and "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ." Romans 10:17. Our job is to "plant the seeds of faith" by sharing the Gospel, and God Himself cultivates those seeds in us. Our trust, belief and faith are gifts from God, they are not "feelings" about the truth, as some would say. "Feelings" rely on human wisdom rather than on God's truth, and in relying on such rather than relying on God, we put ourselves in grave danger. Instead, we need to stand firm to the faith regardless of how we feel, regardless of our human nature. We must put aside our doubts and fears and simply accept the truth for what it is - in "blind faith," as it may be. This isn't always easy, but we still need to do it.
"Just accept," as the woman told the ballplayer in the movie "Mr. Baseball." :) God takes care of all the rest.
Love to you all!
Nini
Farmgirl Sister #1974
God gave us two hands... one to help ourselves, and one to help others!
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Edited by - Ninibini on Jun 12 2012 07:29:58 AM |
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erowease
True Blue Farmgirl
294 Posts
Lesley
Edmonds
wa
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2012 : 09:51:03 AM
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I wasnt sure what was being asked but would like to share what was said sunday by our pastor when discussing Hebrews. Jesus is our advocate before God because he can relate to what it is to be human. His sacrifice is the new covenant which allows us to have a right relationship with God despite our sinful nature.
Lesley
#2950
"I see God in the eyes of every child...every life is precious to God, whatever the circumstances." Mother Teresa |
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buffypuff
True Blue Farmgirl
1183 Posts
Claudia
Deer Park
WA
USA
1183 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2012 : 12:58:14 PM
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Exactly to all 3 of you. What I was getting at...or my point.. was the very questioning that unbelievers may ask. As Nini said, we just accept...we believe because the Bible says so...so that's that. But what about those questioning who Jesus is...what makes Him different that Budda, Mohammad etc? It doesn't hurst to question, in those dark moments (maybe you have never questioned if Jesus could ever love you enough to forgive your horrendous sin...or your past etc.)But what I was getting to...was what was your journey..that you might be able to offer others that cemented in you that even though it is the Word that says Jesus was and could only be the One to pay for our sins....what was it that made you closer to Jesus. What was it that even though in sin, you could say...even though I am a sinner, "I know that I know that you love me to have forgiven me. Does that make any sense to you? Even though the Bible says it...were you drug out of the mud to a salvation so wonderful that you will forever be Jesus' friend? All I wanted after reading the scriptures, was to know what you have taken heartily as food to really make it your own.
Buffypuff/ Claudia ~ Farmgirl Sister #870 @}~~
"God sends no one away empty except those who are full of themselves." DL Moody
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smiley
True Blue Farmgirl
650 Posts
lea
pea ridge
arkansas
USA
650 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2012 : 8:02:33 PM
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| Every man has been given a measure of faith. I dont think it is one event making me closer to Jesus but rather a series of them where I grow in the Lord and the power of His might. |
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erowease
True Blue Farmgirl
294 Posts
Lesley
Edmonds
wa
USA
294 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2012 : 9:01:40 PM
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As I was driving home from work this evening I was contemplating on this and I think what brought me to Jesus is his unfailing love. He is the parent my parents could never be to sum up my childhood without going into too much detail. In a way I view him as a parent who forgives with a kind and gentle hand but wants us to fully acknowledge our sins and make a conscious decision to do our best to not commit them again. He is always there with his hand held out to lead us and we just need to reach out and hold on. The image in my mind is always as a five year old running towards the light, ready to give the biggest hug and feeling acceptance, joy, and absolute love.
Lesley
#2950
"I see God in the eyes of every child...every life is precious to God, whatever the circumstances." Mother Teresa |
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buffypuff
True Blue Farmgirl
1183 Posts
Claudia
Deer Park
WA
USA
1183 Posts |
Posted - Jun 12 2012 : 9:49:47 PM
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I had grown up in the church and had memorized my catechism and went to Mass each day. I loved to go to church and pray and I think as a child and even into my teen years, I was in love with the tradition and ideas that I was praying to a mighty God. Because of several circumstances in nurses training, I doubted that God was there or that I was good enough for Him to answer my prayers. I found myself being a victim in several areas and I emotionally felt like I was being hit so much that I was crumpling to the ground. Because of what seemed like a steel door to Heaven, I gave up praying or even believing that God was possible.... or if he was, He was not there for me. I believed it was possible that God came to earth through a sinless soul and lived a life to save others...but not for me because of what had happened to me. Through a series of events too numerous to state, I found myself at an empasse. In the midst of a painful divorce with 2 children, I thought I would end it all. For weeks I toyed with it, but thinking about my children held me back. One day I saw a simple pen and ink drawing of Jesus cuddled close to a lamb... dirty and tired. That picture spoke to me that Jesus came for me too. The Bible became personalized. Everything that I had read so many years before became living proof to me that Jesus died for me. It is that relationship which made me realize that God sent His Son who had no sin, born through a human ...becoming human so that He could gather me up and repair my broken life. He understood. To me, that is what gave me life as I read that He who had no sin became sin so that we could have life. It ceased to only be head knowledge, but truely heart knowledge.
Buffypuff/ Claudia ~ Farmgirl Sister #870 @}~~
"God sends no one away empty except those who are full of themselves." DL Moody
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Ninibini
True Blue Farmgirl
7577 Posts
Nini
Pennsylvania
USA
7577 Posts |
Posted - Jun 13 2012 : 09:34:38 AM
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What a beautiful testimony, Claudia! Isn't God just amazing and wonderful? And how full and rich our lives become once we are able to really "see" and trust Him?
From the time I was a wee little girl, I always wanted people to read me the Bible, but nobody really would. Finally, one afternoon, my Grandma started to read Genesis to me and my sister, probably thinking it would settle us down for a nap. I started asking so many questions that she became a little flustered, and, tired herself, closed the book and had us pray before putting us down for the afternoon. That was the first time I heard the Word of God and I was fascinated. My grandparents took us to Mass each week, and I remember staring at the Priest until everything went golden. The best part about going to Church, to be honest, was getting to have donuts and hot chocolate on the way home! LOL! But I distinctly remember well before I started Kindergarten an amazing thing happened to me. You'll probably think I'm crazy, but it honest-to-Pete happened. My parents always put us to bed at 7:00 - even in the summertime while the sun was still out, while other kids were still playing. I faithfully said all my prayers, asking God to bless everyone I could ever think of and their brother. Then I would pray that He would put a "cave" around me to protect me while I slept so nobody would see me if they came into my room, and so nobody would hurt me or take me away (let's just leave it at that). This one particular night, when I was finished praying, I rolled over and looked down toward my floor. There I watched the Exodus - no kidding - as if it were happening right in front of me! Not Israel's actual leaving of Egypt, not the crossing through the parted Red Sea... but the Israelites walking through the desert. I swear to you I could've reached out and touched them. The whole scene was only about 3' high, and there were countless people walking and riding donkeys - men, women, children... old, young; there were animals with them, too. Everyone looked very focused on what they were doing; nobody looked sad, just pleasant and peaceful. They were wearing cloths and sandals and had all their provisions; they were 3-dimensional, solid, colorful figures - real people. I wasn't asleep or anything - I was as wide awake as I am as I type this. I didn't realize, of course, at that point what I was seeing. I tried repeatedly to wake my little sister so she could see it, too, but she was in a deep sleep. My dad, however, heard my ruckus and came to our door wondering what the heck was going on. I kept staring at all the people, and I asked him if he could see them all. He kept asking me specifically what I saw, because there was nothing there. I went on to describe everyone, and he just stood there with the funniest look on his face, I'll never forget it - he was befuddled. HE knew what I was seeing, but I didn't. Then, the whole vision simply vanished. He tucked me in again, told me to go to sleep, then proceeded down the hall, and started telling my mother what I had told him. I could hear their conversation - my Mom gasped shock, almost in disbelief. They were both amazed at what I had told my Dad that I was seeing. My mother came back into my room and asked if I was all right? Of course, I couldn't sleep - I was still thinking about all those people. She asked what I saw, so I told her. I asked her who all those people were and she said we'd talk in the morning. Next day, I asked over and over and over and she finally asked me if I knew who the Israelites were? I had no clue. She explained the story to me in the most simplistic terms, and then said I must've seen something on television at Easter and had been dreaming. I insisted I was not dreaming, but she wouldn't listen. Only my Grandmother believed. I was not dreaming, I assure you. It was real as you or me. And you can think I'm crazy, but it's the truth. From that point on, I KNEW God was there, that He was real, and that He was trying to tell me something. To this day, I have no idea why God showed me that as a little girl, but I can tell you that over the years he has shown me other things, too, but usually in different ways. Very exciting to say the least. :)
I grew up going to Mass and CCD, but my parents left the church when I was still young. We moved and my mother started "trying out" all kinds of different churches, all the while my family was falling apart. I remember wherever we went, I would ask questions that would blow my teachers' minds, and so many awesome conversations ensued - even when I was really young. Anyhow, along the way, my Mom met and confided in a pastor who himself was going through a divorce, and he convinced her to do the same. BAD things happened, and I was really ANGRY at God. I was too young to realize that God doesn't make these things happen - PEOPLE make these things happen. But I still blamed Him, and I made sure I hurt Him as often as I could. It was horrible - I am so ashamed of the things I said and did back then. Praise God for His Love, Steadfastness, Mercy and Grace! My Grandma - GOD BLESS HER - she prayed for me. OH, how she prayed. And she would drop "seeds," and pray even more. She always was a gentle witness - my Grandfather, too. They always accepted me, they never rejected me, they always were there for me, they always loved completely. Aside from the love I know from Christ, and the love I now share with my husband and son, I have never known love like that. It was Jesus loving me through them. I always knew He was there, I always knew He was the center of it all... I digress... I still spoke to Him on occasion, but after a while I kind of lost touch with Him, if you know what I mean. Life was "more interesting," and what I wanted was certainly more important to my self-centered youthful heart than seeking Him in any respect. I was so selfish, so focused on superficial things. Foolishness. Frankly, I didn't just turn away from Him - I forgot Him. Boy, was life empty and hard. Then in college I took a secular Philosophy of Religion course on a whim, and this warm spark of fire lit in my heart for Him. I couldn't get enough - I had to KNOW the truth, I had to KNOW Him. I had to KNOW for myself! I started searching for Him, reading the Bible, memorizing Scripture, reading whatever I could get my hands on about Him, watching Christian television, etc. Suddenly, He placed all these amazing people in my life - I wasn't seeking them, they were just "there!" Unexpected conversations with complete strangers popped up out of nowhere. People in my life whom I greatly loved suddenly started to open up to me and share about Him. And then one day, fully realizing all I had been missing, I simply committed my life to Him. I have never been the same.
I'd be lying if I said it's all been peachy. I had had some turbulent times in my marriage after our son was born. I know I don't have to get into it for you all to imagine how hard marriage can be at times - how trying. In the midst of it all, I got lost. I focused on the problems, instead of Him, and I fell into a deep pit. I made bad choices, I "forgot" about Him again ... well, KIND of - I mean, I still talked "about" Him, but never "to" Him. I had forgotten the most important thing: my relationship with Him; and, again, life was empty and hard. There was a time that I didn't even know how to get back to Him - I was so focused on fixing things on my own, that I ended up almost destroying everything, if you can believe it. Then, when I was at my lowest point, I remember sitting in my living room, talking to Him as if He were standing right there. I told Him I knew how much I had hurt Him and how I had shut Him out, and how much I really did miss Him and need Him. I didn't even care if He fixed my mess - all I wanted was Him; to have Him in my life again, to feel His Love and Wholeness and Peace again. He was all I needed. He was enough. I asked His forgiveness, for His mercy; and I asked Him to come back into my life and simply take charge - I am His and He could use my life in whatever way He wanted for His Glory. And that was that. Literally from that moment on, He fixed everything, picked me up out of the mire, cleaned me and made everything new. He healed my marriage (truly MIRACULOUS changes happened - we have never been so happy! I am grateful!), He healed my soul, He repaired my life, gave me Hope, a New Beginning and Direction. And I assure you, I will never ever ever ever "forget" Him again. He is everything, and is as real to me as the person standing next to me. I hear His voice, I feel His leading, and sometimes when praying I dare say even see His face. Oh, the stories I could tell! I just love Him! I want Him for EVERYONE! And the coolest thing? My family loves Him, too! My husband and son are growing in their relationships with the Lord, too. They are not nearly as "on fire" as I am yet (I have to remember not to overwhelm sometimes!), but I see miracles happening in them. And it's so exciting to see His spark light their hearts, and the twinkle of God in their eyes. So beautiful! What a Gift!
He has always been in my heart, like I said, from the time I was a wee little girl. Any separation from Him has been my own frail, human doing - never His. I can't say I've ever really doubted Him or His existence, only that I've definitely managed to do my best to shut Him out. But He never ever ever let that door completely slam shut, Praise Him! I have learned to trust Him in all things - even when I cannot see or understand His ways. I know that I know that I know that I know that He loves me and is working all things together for my good. I continue to grow in Him, and learn how exciting life is when I really trust Him - when I just "let go, and let God!" He has never told me "no" to anything, although sometimes He blesses me in unexpected ways that are very different from what I had anticipated. HIS will and HIS blessings are so much greater than anything I could ever imagine for myself, to be sure. I just want to soak Him up - you know? Like you said, Claudia... He's no longer "head knowledge" to me - He is in my heart!
Love you, sisters!
Nini
Farmgirl Sister #1974
God gave us two hands... one to help ourselves, and one to help others!
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Edited by - Ninibini on Jun 13 2012 09:43:37 AM |
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buffypuff
True Blue Farmgirl
1183 Posts
Claudia
Deer Park
WA
USA
1183 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2012 : 8:18:06 PM
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Nini, I read this several days ago and didn't have time to answer. I was impressed with the gift that God had given you, and know that with each of His children, a special gift is given. As with the scriptures in Joel, visions and dreams are common place and I think given by God for direction in times of chaos. Too often people, including some Christians are swayed by what others, even more prominent, say. God will, through His Holy spirit, instruct and direct His people in the ways they should go. That is why I posed some of the questions above. In these times, questions may be asked and if we are not firmly sure of who God is and who Jesus is, we may not be able to give a good answer. I heard on the news the other day that fewer of the younger generation believe there is a God. It was an alarming stat. Does anyone else have a comment? If not, we will move on.
Buffypuff/ Claudia ~ Farmgirl Sister #870 @}~~
"God sends no one away empty except those who are full of themselves." DL Moody
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smiley
True Blue Farmgirl
650 Posts
lea
pea ridge
arkansas
USA
650 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2012 : 06:37:20 AM
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| Must be something about that "if not we will move on" part that is like spurs on a horse to me Claudia:) Father in law passed in Apr. and cousin hadnt seen in 15 yrs was there. We were very close but she is playing with the occult now and when I warned her she laughed it off. I wont go into details but afterward I had a vivid dream of getting snake bit. I pick the live snake up and show it to my pastor (only other one in dream) and said this wont hurt me. It isnt poisonous. He said yes it is. I told him I dont feel a thing and he says it is -cuts away with a pocket knife around the wound and tells me you need help, go to a hospital and I wake up. I told my pastor of the dream and he said I could be being warned not to renew this friendship at this stage. I havent known her for 15 years. My daughter (16) loved her. He said playing with the occult is a joke to her and my daughter is at an impressionable age. I thought something poisonous I couldnt handle (picking up the snake; and telling a man of God the bite wouldnt hurt me. Anyhow it was such a vivid dream. For now I will hold off renewing the friendship. Sad thing is I have knelt at the altar with this girl years ago. Now I pray for her. |
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smiley
True Blue Farmgirl
650 Posts
lea
pea ridge
arkansas
USA
650 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2012 : 06:39:51 AM
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| Should have proof read before hitting reply:) I meant could handle not couldnt. Big difference two little letters give. |
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buffypuff
True Blue Farmgirl
1183 Posts
Claudia
Deer Park
WA
USA
1183 Posts |
Posted - Jun 25 2012 : 3:34:00 PM
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Ha!!! ;o) Lea, you are so very funny. I did get a jolt and a chuckle when I read your comments. I'll make fake excuses for myself and say that I am like an auctioneer trying to delay the "going going gone." My delays have not helped anything, but now that my daughter is almost 2 weeks after having her surgery, things are a little more normal. She is wishing time away so she can get back to Tampa. Her husband had to leave to go back their for work 5 days after her surgery. So... this got pushed way down the list. I do so appreciated the spurs to the ribs, so I will get with it. Before that, I wish to comment on your dealings with your cousin. I think that probably your pastor is correct, and he knows you personally, but as I read it, the scripture:
“You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.” 1 John 4:4 (NKJV).... came to mind. You have the Holy Spirit of Christ residing in you and "you are more than a conquerer through Him who loved you." (My rendition of Rom 8:37). That is one reason I have hated so the Twilight series and the glorifying of the occult, vampires and werewolves. There is definitely a spiritual battle and the best thing for her now may be prayer. That would be so much more powerful that hanging out.
Ta Da!! Now the proof of our justification is Jesus' resurrection from the dead. Yet some will continue to say that He did not, anymore than he was born from a virgin. Yet if he had be born like us with both human parents, He would not be like the unblemished lamb used to pay for our sins. The Virgin birth is essential to our salvation, and you must come to grip with it if you are to have a meaning ful relationship. It is a matter of faith as has been said, but faith untested at times can peel away like a glossy backed sticker. It is in the furnace of trials that we become cemented to be able to say that "we know that we know that we know." We must take a stand and believe the Word of God. In prayer it is ok to tell the Father that you want to be strong in this regard, and that you don't want to doubt or question... to ask for His grace.
So as we enter the last of Kay Arthur's book, let us see what you think of these scriptures... and what does it mean to you.
1 Corin: 15:12-19
John 11:25-26
Romans 10:1-13
Eph 2:8-9
Buffypuff/ Claudia ~ Farmgirl Sister #870 @}~~
"God sends no one away empty except those who are full of themselves." DL Moody
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Ninibini
True Blue Farmgirl
7577 Posts
Nini
Pennsylvania
USA
7577 Posts |
Posted - Jun 27 2012 : 08:48:13 AM
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Hi girls!
Lea - I was reading your post about your cousin and the snake dream you had. I would DEFINITELY take that dream as a warning to be careful... And to pray for her. Like you, I have very vivid dreams like that from time to time, and they really do have meaning! I had a similar snake dream concerning my mother-in-law when we first moved to PA. Now, please understand, I loved my mother-in-law dearly, God rest her soul. But God definitely wanted me to understand that things weren't right and that I had to be very careful. In your dream, I would have to say that you are being warned that things may seem harmless, but it is definitely dangerous. Especially considering how much your daughter loves your cousin. You don't want something seemingly harmless to slither into your daughter's or family's life and then, before you know it, realize it's doing great harm. It's like the frog in the pot of water... If you try to put a frog in a pot of boiling water, it will immediately jump out. But if you put it in a pan of cool water, and slowly heat it up, it will slowly adjust to the temperature as it rises. Before it even knows what's happening, the frog is cooked! That is so typical of Satan, though, isn't it? He slithers in and does a lot of damage before we even realize he is there. The occult is no joke - not at all. Not at all. The beauty of all of this is, though, that you are your cousin's lifeline to Christ. You keep praying for her... She will always remember having prayed with you, and she will know she can trust you and come to you if and when (God forbid) things go terribly awry. Please be sure to bathe yourself and your family in prayer, Lea... He will protect you under the shadow of His wing and light the straight path for you to follow. Pray fervently for your cousin, but definitely keep your distance. You may even find at some point that you or your family are spiritually attacked by evil because of your prayers for her. If that happens, cling to 1 John 4:4 and Romans 8:37 - Claudia is spot on with both! :) Stay strong, stay focused, because at that point, you know that you are making the enemy uncomfortable and winning the spiritual battle. I will definitely pray with you. I'm always here if you need me, okay? We all are!
Claudia - I'm so glad to hear your daughter is recovering. She is so blessed to be able to be with you - there's nothing like Mom's love to comfort us when we need healing! I am sure that it must be SO hard for her to be away from her husband, though. I will be praying for her. Please take all the time you need. We are in no rush to move things along here with the Bible study - this gives us more time to prayerfully consider what God is telling us! :) I will be reading these Scriptures and getting back to you all soon!
I just can't believe this study is coming to a close! Do you have plans for another - or does anyone else? We can't let this end!!! I can try to help, if you'd like!
Lots of love -
Nini
Farmgirl Sister #1974
God gave us two hands... one to help ourselves, and one to help others!
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Gathered Up: Bible Study "Having a Real Relationship With God" |
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Bible Study "Having a Real Relationship With God"
