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A Farm of My Own:  Getting A Zoning Variance  |
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PocketFarmgirl
True Blue Farmgirl
119 Posts
Sarah
Utica
New York
119 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 15 2007 : 1:10:28 PM
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This is x-posted with my "Think we found it" thread. Sorry, I usually hate x-posts, but I need as many farmgirls to see this as possible.
We put an offer on a rural property, contingent on getting a zoning variance to do small ag.. The seller wants me to drop the ag. variance contingency. He and his fiance (both have kids) are buying a bigger house together, and they already have an offer on it, contingent on the sale of this one. They're not willing to take this house off the market for the 30-40 days it could take to get an answer about the variance, b/c it might cause their purchase to fall through.
I called the codes officer, but his cell went straight to voicemail (MLK Day). I left him a voicemail asking if he could tell me when the next zoning committee meeting is, or give me the name and number of a zoning committee member, so I can see if there's any way to fast track this.
What I'm asking really shouldn't be a big deal. The property is three acres. Here, that's considered a hobby farm. Cow fine, chickens fine, but only for personal use. To sell any produce, I'd have to be considered small ag., and that's a 5 acre minimum. I think that's because the house is in an area of low density residential. BUT, my neighbor on at least two sides is a Christmas tree farmer, so it's not like I'm surrounded by McMansions with play yards. Also, I think several organic growers in this county (not necessarily the town) are farming on less than three acres.
Has anyone got any experience with this? What information will a zoning officer want in addition to the zoning and building permit application? What should I be prepared to tell them? If I have to stand up at a zoning committee meeting and speak, do I need a business plan, or do I avoid one and just be "folks"?
Thanks, farmgirls. You are my experts, and I really need your help. |
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Destiny~
True Blue Farmgirl
195 Posts
Dar
west
TX
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2007 : 2:35:42 PM
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I don't have experience with the AG thing but I do know we got sc***** when it came to the zoning on the property behind our house. It was one thing when we moved in but it was priced so high (which we didn't know)it could only go commercial, which it did, we fought it once and was sucessful. We weren't the second time. Now it looks like I live in the middle of a parking lot. My point to you, if you don't get it zoned the way you want it at purchase, then someone could complain later when you do try and get it and you run the risk of it not working out the way you thought it would. Take nothing for granted, we did and regret it. Just my two cents.
"Let us, together, sow seeds for a better harvest-a harvest for hope."
Jane Goodall, Harvest for Hope |
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bramble
True Blue Farmgirl
2044 Posts
2044 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2007 : 8:00:19 PM
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The seller is trying to fast track you for HIS purposes. Have all your information documented (yes, that means going to zoning and getting approval). Sign nothing, buy nothing until you know EXACTLY what you are permitted to do on this property. Zoning variances are turned down routinely here, and you must have neighbor approval as well. You may know what you are planning is harmless, but they will also have to know. We have friends who bought 10 acres and have two horses. Although initially approved, neighbors complained they can smell manure, and they have had to go to elaborate measures to have it hauled off routinely now at their expense to appease people who THOUGHT they would like horses next door. Be prepared when dealing with the zoning and building departments, show a plan overview of where everything you would like would be placed. Remember to inquire about easements, required setbacks and utility easements , any sort of other restrictions that the seller might not be upfront about. You can usually learn alot by a trip to the municipal office and a look at the section maps where your block and lot will be. Better to be informed and prepared than blind sided too late.Good luck!
with a happy heart |
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PocketFarmgirl
True Blue Farmgirl
119 Posts
Sarah
Utica
New York
119 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2007 : 05:33:19 AM
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Last night I spoke to the organizer of the farmer's market for that town. I spoke to him before we moved from Ohio, and he was very helpful then. He and his father have both been organic farmers all their lives, and he's on the planning committee in one of the villages nearby.
At any rate, he said that he's not even sure the current zoning as it stands is enforceable. He said that when the codes officer calls me back, I should try to find out if he considers this a use variance or an area variance. He and I both think it's probably an area variance, because it doesn't change the use the property will be put to at all, it's just that I'm running under on a size requirement if I want to sell what I'll already be growing (and allowed to grow) on three acres. A use variance would be more like if I wanted to build a gas station on a lot that was zoned residential. Those are harder to get.
He also thinks I should call the local extension office, as they have a history of helping out with things like this. I've been in there before, but hadn't thought to call about this. He gave me the name/number of the executive director and told me to say he referred me.
My BIL works in the city, and doesn't deal with ag. pretty much ever, but he's in zoning, and said that hopefully this would be a rubber stamp. He says that if he knows people have little or no chance of a variance, he typically tells them so up front. The fact that this guy said it was "very doable" speaks volumes to him. The farmer I spoke to said that the codes officer is a good guy, that he's by the book, which drives some people crazy, but at least he knows the book, which is more than you can say for some people! 
Anyway, that gives me stuff to do today. I guess I'll see where that goes. Please, if any farmgirls have stuff to add, let me know.
I hear you, bramble. I haven't hit the point yet of deciding for sure whether I'm ready to risk not getting the variance in order to get my family into a home. |
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PocketFarmgirl
True Blue Farmgirl
119 Posts
Sarah
Utica
New York
119 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2007 : 07:41:50 AM
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x-post again, sorry.
I think I may have figured this out.
I called the Cooperative Extension today, and they passed me up to the Ag. Protection board in Albany. They said the same thing Jim (farmer's market organizer guy) said...that they don't think I can be prohibited from selling off-site, like at a farmer's market. They basically said if I was growing it in my high-density residential backyard no one could stop me from selling off-site, so why should it matter whether the land's 3 or 5 acres?
Well, I went back and re-read the town's wording. Here it is (bolding mine):
HOBBY FARM - A collection of animals maintained on residential property for non-commercial
purposes as a hobby or pastime.
AGRICULTURAL OPERATION - The raising for compensation of crops, animals, dairy, and
horses, and agricultural or dairy products. The term includes plant, crop and tree growing and
harvesting, horticulture, forestry and the sale at wholesale or retail of the products thereof upon the
premises where the same are grown or produced.
I read that to mean that, as long as I'm selling off-site, there's no problem.
I think this is all b/c I told him I'd be interested in selling excess chicken eggs in the event that I had any. I think if I blow that off completely, promise to seek a variance if I ever need one to sell chicken eggs, this whole thing will go away.
If he hasn't called me by noon, I'm calling him. |
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bramble
True Blue Farmgirl
2044 Posts
2044 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2007 : 08:12:09 AM
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The final word is going to come ultimately from the municipality to where you pay taxes. What is this property currently zoned as? That should be your first concern. Is it a property that even needs this variance if you sell off site? I spent many years dealing with homeowners and municipalities, sometimes needing zoning and construction variances and approvals. I'm glad to hear that you have a good guy in that position (there are some horrendous ones).
Please proceed with caution and know the facts. Everyone's opinion is valuable but right now what you need are the facts as mandated by
the municipality you intend to live in. It is a pain initially, but well worth it for peace of mind and you will have eliminated any confusion or future potential to be fined. Knowledge is power!
with a happy heart |
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PocketFarmgirl
True Blue Farmgirl
119 Posts
Sarah
Utica
New York
119 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2007 : 10:01:18 AM
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I was right. As long as I'm not actually selling on the property and causing traffic, we're good to go. I can sell at the farmer's market or elsewhere all I want.
bramble and Destiny~, thank you so much for your reading and replies! |
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bramble
True Blue Farmgirl
2044 Posts
2044 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2007 : 10:13:08 AM
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Good news Sarah! Now keep us posted on the "new " property! ( I have been to Lee Center which isn't too far from you I think. Property in your area was very reasonable back in the 1990's, is it still? My cousin bought a big farm house with a three story barn for under 100,000. back then ! We were all VERY jealous!
with a happy heart |
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Destiny~
True Blue Farmgirl
195 Posts
Dar
west
TX
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2007 : 10:46:28 AM
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I'm sorry if I sounded too negative, I just don't want to see anyone else go through the disappointment that we did.
I hope it all works out well for you, good luck.
"Let us, together, sow seeds for a better harvest-a harvest for hope."
Jane Goodall, Harvest for Hope |
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faithymom
True Blue Farmgirl
360 Posts
Faith
Sandpoint
ID
USA
360 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2007 : 11:03:40 AM
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You won't need to not sell the chicken eggs... You just need to sell them somewhere else, too. You could bring them with you to the farmer's market ot try a local store.
We have a book store nearby that has fresh eggs for sale.
"All television is educational television. The only question is, what is it teaching?"-Fmr. FCC Commissioner Nicholas Johnson |
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Mari-dahlia
True Blue Farmgirl
269 Posts
Marianne
Hoosick Falls
New York
USA
269 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2007 : 12:40:29 PM
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Sarah,
I tried this in Guilderland NY near Albany. You do not need any permission to grow anything but you do have rules for animals, which change from town to town and villages too. I was going to put goats on a 6 acre piece of property zoned residential. I met with the town in their offices and was told off the record that I could not do it. So, you might want to just walk in the town or village offices and ask, on the Qt of course.
The land was owned by my grandmother and had always been used for animal raising purposes, pre-zoning laws, so technically it should have been grandfathered in. We could have sued for usage but that would have cost us also, so we opted for going elsewhere.
Also, your zoning has nothing to do with an ag exemption for taxes. A house on 3 arcres will cost more in taxes than a house on fifty acres with a farming ag exemption. You will have to show 12,000.00 of ag income, which there is a ton of ways to do.
good luck
Marianne |
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Lovin Life
True Blue Farmgirl
103 Posts
Lisa
New Hampshire
103 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2007 : 05:51:33 AM
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Hi Sarah,
Your excess chicken eggs will sell with no problem at the market! We sold them last summer and always ran out. I'm excited for you, you'll be able to do a lot with your property. I had to go through the zoning variance for my "mini farm" too. Not for the veggies, but for the chickens and the goats (which I no longer have, unfortunately.) I wanted to have a little farm stand on my property too, just one day a week during the summer, but the town said No because of the traffic issue. I make more money at the Farmer's Market anyway, so that was no big loss. It's funny, at the meeting they said they were going to come check out my property to see if I was following all the guidelines, but they've never done it. They did say that if I ever move, they will rescind the zoning exception for the next home owner. What will you be growing for market? Those big sunflowers were a huge seller at our market. They're so happy looking.
I'd rather live my life with a "full plate" than an empty one. Life is not a rehearsal... eat up! |
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GaiasRose
True Blue Farmgirl
2552 Posts
Tasha-Rose
St. Paul
Minnesota
2552 Posts |
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PocketFarmgirl
True Blue Farmgirl
119 Posts
Sarah
Utica
New York
119 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2007 : 08:06:51 AM
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Lisa, I'm going to plant the biggest area I have seeds for and can handle this year and sell any produce above and beyond what my family can use, so it could literally be just about anything, but most likely veggies. I do want to start a cutting flower "meadow" area like I read about in the MJ book, but I may not be able to afford the seed this year. Plus there's the logistical problem of either taking the flowers to market, or letting people do "pick your own" like in the book. I think if it was just one random person every now and then, it'd be no big deal, but I've never done it before, so I don't know. If I can afford to get our small family orchard in and start my chickens, I'll be thrilled. I'm also going to try to get Americanas and Cuckoo Marans in addition to some other breeds, so that I have a lot of variance in egg colors. Now I want to go start some big thread about that....
Tasha, did you see that I no longer need the variance? The codes officer was reading it wrong. The only prohibition for a farm my size is that they don't want me selling on the property (like a farmstand). A CSA with off-site pickup or selling at the farmer's market is fine. |
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GaiasRose
True Blue Farmgirl
2552 Posts
Tasha-Rose
St. Paul
Minnesota
2552 Posts |
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Lovin Life
True Blue Farmgirl
103 Posts
Lisa
New Hampshire
103 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2007 : 4:42:07 PM
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Sarah,
That wildflower meadow is a nice idea. It will be so pretty too. We have a small section of our property that we call "the field" where a bunch of different flowers grow naturally. There's a tree too that I love, just because of the shape of its leaves, kind of wavy and thin. I've never seen any thing like it sold in stores. But surrounded by the milkweed pods and the yarrow and rosa rugosa it's kind of hidden, so I need to do some clearing to show it off.
I wouldn't think you'd have a problem with traffic for a pick your own flower operation. If your driveway is long or wide enough for two or three cars at once, I think you should give it a go. If there is a traffic jam, you can always sell the flowers at the market. People always love a beautiful bouquet for their homes.
Also asian vegetables are a big seller around here, I'm going to grow a few different varieties this year. My Bok Choy totally bolted last year, I was so bummed. It started out great with all our cloudy days and rain, then we got some beautiful sunny hot days and boom! Live and Learn.
I'd rather live my life with a "full plate" than an empty one. Life is not a rehearsal... eat up! |
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A Farm of My Own: Getting A Zoning Variance |
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Getting A Zoning Variance
