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Family Matters:  Need to give girlfriend advice: UPDATE  |
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FebruaryViolet
True Blue Farmgirl
4810 Posts
Jonni
Elsmere
Kentucky
USA
4810 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 31 2012 : 08:39:58 AM
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Hey gals...I'm in a pickle--a dear friend is debating on leaving her spouse because he's a patholigical liar (who also suffers from mental illness) and after 23 years of it, she's done...
He lies about everything--bit or little--sometimes it's obvious, sometimes not. She calls him out on it, loses her trust in him, feels really betrayed (especially when it's something that affects their marriage like his addictive behaviors (he suffers from depression/manic episodes and on his "highs" gambles away money, drinks excessively, uses illegal substances, etc...) and either doesn't tell her anything or she catches him when the bank account is dry and then he blames HER for his lying--it's somehow her fault, that she causes him to lie because he gets tired of the fights about his behavior (????  ) Then, after a time, seems to forget about it and all is well...until the next time he lies about somethng that actually matters to her.
They have 2 boys that he treats like gold. But, what about her? As her close friend, I feel like telling her to pack his crap up and toss it out on the porch, but that's probably not the best answer. He does seek counseling when he goes off his medication, and he has been institutionalized in the past for his mania. Which is really the issue, right? Sure, he lies, but he also suffers from mental illness and I guess I'm struggling with telling her she should leave him (because, in all honesty, I know she loves him dearly, but how much does she take?). When he's mentally healthy, everything is wonderful, but when he's not, it's just awful and it's like pulling the rug out from under her all over again.
She will ultimately make the final decision, but I don't want to color her choices and then feel terrible when I see this family deconstruct, if that's the choice.
"Hey, I've got nothing to do today but smile..."
The Only Living Boy in New York, Paul Simon |
Edited by - FebruaryViolet on Nov 08 2012 09:24:02 AM |
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nubidane
True Blue Farmgirl
2970 Posts
Lisa
Georgetown
OH
2970 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2012 : 08:58:58 AM
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The biggest gift that any married couple can give their children is a healthy loving relationship between the two of them. They do not have this. I think she needs to end it. She will look back & wonder how she did it all those years.
Maybe her ending it will be the catalyst to force a change. If not, she will be better off.
Hard choices, but this is VERY unhealthy. |
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gramadinah
True Blue Farmgirl
3557 Posts
Diana
Orofino
ID
USA
3557 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2012 : 09:36:31 AM
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LEAVE
Diana
Farmgirl Sister #273 |
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FebruaryViolet
True Blue Farmgirl
4810 Posts
Jonni
Elsmere
Kentucky
USA
4810 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2012 : 10:25:30 AM
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I agree, Lisa and Diana...and I hate that I do, honestly. I guess I wish I didn't know them both so well because, when he's mentally stable, he is one of the best people I know, but when he isn't...well, it's just too difficult to live in a house that crazy, honestly. Her boys are...absolutely beautiful. The most compassionate children I've ever known and they have a huge capacity for love. They know he's off, but I still think they shouldn't have to be exposed.
She's just going to have to weigh out the pro's and con's and really pray on it. She also just lost her mother, so I know that's weighing in on her decision, too. Too much change at one time.
"Hey, I've got nothing to do today but smile..."
The Only Living Boy in New York, Paul Simon |
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kysheeplady
True Blue Farmgirl
1291 Posts
Teri
KY
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2012 : 10:39:06 AM
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If she is your true friend, you can tell her ...Pretty sure she knows tho ... I feel bad for the kids ... It must be awful to see your Dad treat your Mom that way ...
Never know ... Kids learn what they live!
Good Luck!
Teri
"There are black sheep in every flock"
White Sheep Farm
www.whitesheepfarm.com |
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AnnieinIdaho
True Blue Farmgirl
437 Posts
Annie
ID
USA
437 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2012 : 11:19:12 AM
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Hi...my half brother was schizophrenic and it is truly a situation where often times they are unreachable. A relationship of any kind is adding someone to your life with give and take, but it is an exchange. This husband is not available to anyone and in many aspects not even to "himself". He probably treats the sons better because he thinks they are a part of himself. The 23 years was a commitment and now it serves no further purpose. One is worn down and the soul will dwindle and weaken. It is important and still a responsibility to look out for the sons, so it really is in their best interest to leave. You can explain that even though you are leaving it is with compassion and understanding you are truly helpless in this situation and that you and the sons must move on to enjoy the individual life you each were given with healthy brains. You can explain it is important to live safely, without drama and spillover from his mental illness. Get the professional support of a health provider and psychiatrist to make this happen in a safe way. The courts will determine (you will need an attorney)the parameters in this case which is why you will need medical m.d.'s who support your viewpoint in leaving. Enough is enough and you really cannot be his caregiver. He needs a medical team.
Best to you.
Annie
"The turnings of life seldom show a sign-post; or rather, though the sign is always there, it is usually placed some distance back, like the notices that give warning of a bad hill or a level railway-crossing." Edith Wharton, 1913 from 'The Custom of the Country'. |
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Alee
True Blue Farmgirl
22944 Posts
Alee
Worland
Wy
USA
22944 Posts |
Posted - Aug 31 2012 : 1:06:12 PM
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If she does decide to stay- maybe she could get legal guardianship over him so she could force his money into an account where he can't touch it. That way even though he might have episodes- he would have limited rope with which to hang himself and their relationship? I would say have him voluntarily do it, but the first time he decides to change his direct deposits (if he gets them) then that will be another huge fight.
Alee
Farmgirl Sister #8
www.farmgirlalee.blogspot.com
www.allergyjourneys.blogspot.com
[url=http://www.TickerFactory.com/weight-loss/wff7Xpc/]
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CountryBorn
True Blue Farmgirl
1545 Posts
Mary Jane
New York
USA
1545 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2012 : 09:23:59 AM
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That is a rough one Jonni. Should she leave, yes of course. Will she leave is another question. She has lived this way for so many years. She has stayed for 23 years. She must be feeling she is there to protect or save him. But of course he has to want to change. I would talk with her and tell her your worries and how you feel about their situation. Ask her what she wants for herself and her children. Is she happy there or does she really want to break away and start a new life free of his drama and lies? Does she feel like she deserves more than the way he treats her? If she truly does then she should take definite steps in that direction. As soon as possible. If she hems and haws and has all kinds of reasons why she should stay then you will know that she really does not want to leave. I have been in this position that you are in. I tried over and over to help my friend change things for the better for herself. But, in the end I had to accept that she really just did not want to leave him, no matter how big of a jerk he was to her. That was really hard, because it just kills me to see a woman be treated badly and not want better for herself.All you can do is try Jonni. Follow your heart and do what you feel is best. At least then you know that you really tried to help your friend. She may not leave now, but, knowing she has you to turn to may give her the strength to do it later.
MJ
There can be no happiness if the things we believe in are different from the things we do. Freya Stark |
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Nancy Gartenman
True Blue Farmgirl
9094 Posts
Nancy
West Seneca
New York
USA
9094 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2012 : 10:17:29 AM
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Tell her you will suport her whatever she decides. That only she really knows whats best.
www.Nancy-Jo.blogspot.com |
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nut4fabric
True Blue Farmgirl
885 Posts
Kathy
Morgan Hill
CA
USA
885 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2012 : 1:12:07 PM
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We have a bi-polar family member and life has been rough at times, the best friends are the ones that love and support you but keep their opinions and advice to themselves. Many times advice comes off judgemental even when offered with the best of intentions.
Kathy |
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sjmjgirl
True Blue Farmgirl
566 Posts
Stephanie
Mt. Vernon
Iowa
USA
566 Posts |
Posted - Sep 03 2012 : 4:06:14 PM
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The only thing you can do is be a supportive friend. If anything, i would encourage her to get a separate bank account that he doesnt have access to. No matter what happens, she needs to protect her and the kids' finances.
Farmgirl Sister # 3810
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
- Dalai Lama
April is Autism Awareness month. Autism affects 1 in 88 children (1 in 54 boys, including my son). Go to http://www.autismspeaks.org/ to learn more and help Light It Up Blue on April 2nd!
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Edited by - sjmjgirl on Sep 03 2012 4:07:10 PM |
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MtnGrlByTheBay
True Blue Farmgirl
171 Posts
Erin
Lexington Park
MD
USA
171 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2012 : 06:50:25 AM
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I hate to see ANY marriage end. In cases of abuse or adultery, I cut some slack, but I just hate to see a vow broken.
The wrench here is the mental illness. I don't know the right answer, but I ask myself this question over and over. If your spouse has Cancer, you wouldn't leave them JUST because they have this illness. So, if they have a MENTAL illness, why would that be any different? It IS, but SHOULD it be? I pray about this question a lot. God hasn't shown me an answer yet.
My MIL has a mental illness. Probably schizophrenic, but I can't say for sure. I have bent over backwards to help her because she is FAMILY. But some recent events have silenced all communication between her and my family. DH wants nothing to do with her. I was willing to help her, as long as she did her part in helping herself. But a situation occured, where it was clear she was in denial about her dependencies. She wasn't willing to let us be part of her "medical team." Without knowing more about her condition(s) I couldn't seek an appropriate support group, or the guidance of how to deal with her under the supervision of a doctor. So we are at an end, and we figure we won't hear from her again unless it's via the police or social services.
I can only say to be there for your friend. Even the closest of friends, still are further apart then the worst of marriages. Only your friend can make her decisions, and I'm sure she wrestles with questions, and is holding back because of all she's invested in this marriage. A friend can't give advice on that calculation. A friend CAN listen. A friend CAN open her home with a locked door and a fresh bed, and some good coffee in the morning. Just try not to judge.
I know I personally keep a lot of my marrital frustration inside simply becuase I don't have ANYONE I can vent to that won't judge me OR my DH. I'd love an open ear, but ultimately, I'll make my own decisions - advice or not.
Leaving is not always the easiest solution either. How many time have you heard people say, "you can't run away from your problems." I was in my DH's life before his previous marriage was over. The divorce was a 5 year mess, and I often wonder why so many people chose this alternative.
^^^I'm a RidgeRunner, and will always feel best when surrounded by the PA mountains.^^^
www.lastlapgang.com |
Edited by - MtnGrlByTheBay on Sep 07 2012 06:55:27 AM |
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FebruaryViolet
True Blue Farmgirl
4810 Posts
Jonni
Elsmere
Kentucky
USA
4810 Posts |
Posted - Sep 07 2012 : 07:11:23 AM
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Girls, I did what most of you suggested. I listened. And I offered a place to crash (even if it is chock full of dogs, toddler stuff and a toddler, and a husband (who is also a good friend to HER husband) and she seems to be staying put.
Like most of you have said, it's going to have to be her decision and no amount of inference from other people can help. I mean, saying, "that's really terrible and you shouldn't have to live like that..." is one thing, but actually making the MOVE to leave with 2 children, no income--she's a stay at home mom of multitudes of talent but never seems to stick with any one thing--is a difficult road to choose. He posts on FB periodically and is very open about his mental state...which is also a little strange to me, but then, these people are of the utmost transparency, artistic, good as the earth folks and their faults are things they see as part of their own make up. If you know them, sooner or later, you'll encounter some of it. Better to not be a suprise, I guess. Anyway, he posted this am on FB that he feels the manic part slowing down, that he spent some time by himself a few days and that seems to help. He also said he hopes that it doesn't go "too far down" which then makes him so depressed he can't get out of bed.
She hasn't said whether he started his meds again--that could be why the mania has slowed, or its simply the natural progression OF the manic phase. It's been going on about 2 1/2 weeks now, and that's a typical amount of time for that high.
It seems we all love someone, have a friend who suffers from or relative who suffers from mental illness. And, as Erin so aptly put it, it's an illness, so how do you form the basis for leaving someone because they are ill?
For my friend, I've never known two more well suited people. Both artistic (and a little out there)and crazy passionate about loving their children, their lives and friends like you've never known anyone else to....when everything is "ok" But, when it's not, that "passion" has a tendency to be quite toxic. I almost feel like she wouldn't know how to BE in a relationship without these ups and downs after all these years. I think it would bore her, frankly.
So, I really want to thank all of you for giving me the good advice to be a good friend and for understanding that there is so much more to these issues than simply, "leave" or "stay". Mental illness is so terrible--for everyone.
Glad I have you girls to bounce these ideas and thoughts off of--I was so upset about the boys seeing their dad this way, and knowing that nothing is ever hidden from them--as a mother, my emotions got the best of me and I thought, "they shouldn't have to live like this--children deserve to live in a bubble of wonderful, without mar" but I also had to remember that these boys love their father and mother, crazy or not. And they love them "together".
Sigh. I'm just crossing fingers that he will stay on his medication and there isn't any further depression that follows this episode. In the 12 years I've known them, he has been hospitalized 2 times--once for a month and that was totally devastating to her, and she had to commit him herself. It was incredibly difficult and I can't imagine it.
"Hey, I've got nothing to do today but smile..."
The Only Living Boy in New York, Paul Simon |
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Joey
True Blue Farmgirl
1868 Posts
Joey
Gulf Coast
FL
USA
1868 Posts |
Posted - Sep 08 2012 : 11:46:08 PM
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Jonni, what a good friend you are. I have been a Psychiatric RN for almost 40 years. I LOVE what I do. My heart breaks for this family. Mental illness is an illness but it is not like cancer. It is not a once and done deal (NOT that cancer is either)and so many people still
see it as "weakness" and not disease. The unfortunate part of all this is that most patients stop taking their meds on a frequent basis,
and turely, there is nothing better than the high creative people feel in the manic state..the crushing depression follows but they never think about that during the high. Most mental illness is a roller coaster ride.
As you and the others have said, you just need to be there for her. This is a major change in her life on so many levels, and she will leave if and when she is ready. She needs you to just love her and support her and you are already doing this. Please know that I have this family close to my heart and I am sending up prayers for them and you too. Joey
Well behaved women rarely make history. |
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FebruaryViolet
True Blue Farmgirl
4810 Posts
Jonni
Elsmere
Kentucky
USA
4810 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2012 : 1:05:51 PM
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Thanks again, girls...I'm sorry to say that it hasn't gotten better, it's gotten worse. He's more manic than any of us have ever seen him--and he's become violent around her, so she's been leaving the house when he gets tempermental and taking the boys with her to stay at various friend's homes.
We were gone last week to the Outer Banks of NC but before we left, I found him and his truck broken down on the side of the expressway on a very windy, chilly and rainy rush hour. I stopped (and backed up carefully--I had Violet with me in the car and I really detest stopping on the side of the road with her) but he was in need, so when I went to talk with him, it was like he was on another planet. He spoke very little about the car breaking down--he wanted to run her in the ground, asked me to take off my shoes so he could see my feet (apparently he has a foot fetish?) and then told me about this van he wanted to buy and put a sign on it that reads, "Department of Secret Information" so that he could drive around to crime scenes, car accidents, what have you and somehow gain access by looking too official to question. All this while cars are whizzing by our heads at high speeds and the sky is spitting cold rain. I called his wife to let her know that I'd found him, and that he was safe after we'd got the car running, but she said she had been gone for the last few days because he'd turned violent.
And he is STILL not on meds. Today, he called my husband and told him that he was having all 21 of his teeth pulled today and getting fit for dentures, and that he was going to die his hair black and get blue contacts so that maybe his wife would "like him more" because that's who she's interested in...and just ramblings and disconnected thoughts that seem so...well, random.
Anyway, she's trying to figure out where to go permanently, and is obviously, very sad, but not sad enough to be illogical. She clearly knows that he can turn on a dime and become someone very different, so I'm glad she's removed the boys and herself for the time being.
The whole thing is just eating me up. I had really hoped that when we got back from NC, he would be on the mend and things would be returning to a more normal pace, but it seems like they are just spiralling out of control even further.
"Hey, I've got nothing to do today but smile..."
The Only Living Boy in New York, Paul Simon |
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sjmjgirl
True Blue Farmgirl
566 Posts
Stephanie
Mt. Vernon
Iowa
USA
566 Posts |
Posted - Sep 24 2012 : 8:35:21 PM
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I am so sorry for your friend. Her husband is obviously in a downward spiral right now. If it were me, I think I would call 911 the next time he gets violent. That way he would be placed on a psych hold and be evaluated. She and the kids would be safe and he would get the help he needs. They are in my prayers.
Farmgirl Sister # 3810
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
- Dalai Lama
April is Autism Awareness month. Autism affects 1 in 88 children (1 in 54 boys, including my son). Go to http://www.autismspeaks.org/ to learn more and help Light It Up Blue on April 2nd!
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Miss Bee Haven
True Blue Farmgirl
4331 Posts
Janice
Louisville/Irvington
Kentucky
USA
4331 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2012 : 12:26:07 PM
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Jonni - Somewhere in this post is the phrase about him 'turning on a dime'. That applies to you, too. You do get that, right? Please don't think he would never do you any harm b/c he's been your friend too. He's really off the spool, from the sound of him. I wouldn't put myself in any situation where I was alone with him. At all. I lived with a guy once who was psycho. He had a genius level intelligence, so he would decide for himself how to take his meds. Not so good. Just keep yourself safe.
Farmgirl Sister #50
"If you think you've got it nailed down, then what's all that around it?"
'Br.Dave Gardner' |
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FebruaryViolet
True Blue Farmgirl
4810 Posts
Jonni
Elsmere
Kentucky
USA
4810 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2012 : 06:39:38 AM
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I hear ya, Janice...I was just talking about this with another friend who is acquainted with them, too, and I related a story about how, several years back, he showed up at the club Justin was working at while I was eating dinner and wanted to "talk"...he'd left his wife and was living out of his car, and I told him that I would finish eating and we could take a walk or something because he seemed really jumpy, and Justin wasn't too keen on him hanging in the bar. While we were out walking, he got all smarmy and tried to make a pass at me, saying that he was just lonely and started to give me all sorts of intimate details about their marriage (which I promptly stopped) and I went back inside. It's like his libido is put in overdrive when he's manic (which I understand is a normal thing--well, as normal as mania can be) and he has no boundaries so he's completely inappropriate. I have made sure that I'm not home alone or by myself other than when I helped him on the side of the road (which had a similar outcome to the aforementioned thing) so I'll be sure to keep my distance.
I appreciate the heed--it's very true what you say about their intellect--they actually think they can diagnose and take better care of themselves than medication.
"Hey, I've got nothing to do today but smile..."
The Only Living Boy in New York, Paul Simon |
Edited by - FebruaryViolet on Nov 08 2012 09:23:41 AM |
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Bonnie Ellis
True Blue Farmgirl
2474 Posts
Bonnie
Minneapolis
Minnesota
USA
2474 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2012 : 8:45:17 PM
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Jonni: If you have a women's shelter that has counseling near-by, get professional help. The violence can easily escalate into something terrible. Please get help NOW!
grandmother and orphan farmgirl |
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FebruaryViolet
True Blue Farmgirl
4810 Posts
Jonni
Elsmere
Kentucky
USA
4810 Posts |
Posted - Sep 27 2012 : 07:19:32 AM
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It's not me, Bonnie, I appreciate the thoughts--it's my dear friend, who's husband is bi-polar.
"Hey, I've got nothing to do today but smile..."
The Only Living Boy in New York, Paul Simon |
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alterationsbyemily
True Blue Farmgirl
697 Posts
Emily
Chambersburg
PA
USA
697 Posts |
Posted - Sep 28 2012 : 2:04:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nubidane
The biggest gift that any married couple can give their children is a healthy loving relationship between the two of them. They do not have this. I think she needs to end it. She will look back & wonder how she did it all those years.
Maybe her ending it will be the catalyst to force a change. If not, she will be better off.
Hard choices, but this is VERY unhealthy.
This is so true. My FIL treats my MIL not nicely. When the SHTF early in my marriage, my husband started treating me like that, ohh no, I got up and left for a month. Now he is a very different person, and we have a much better communication.
I know another person who lies all the time, he is a scary character, I hope that she finds her own strength, and finds what she needs.
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Farmgirl #2951
2012 Farmgirl of the Year
http://simpileeliving.blogspot.com/
And my new Etsy listings http://www.etsy.com/shop/alterationsbyemily |
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FebruaryViolet
True Blue Farmgirl
4810 Posts
Jonni
Elsmere
Kentucky
USA
4810 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2012 : 09:27:27 AM
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Hey girls, just wanted to let you all know that my friend has chosen to divorce her husband--the children are really suffering, acting out and know a little "too much" if you ask me, but every family is different. The last straw was that at some point during his mania, he emptied out stock and bond accounts that were for the boys college and she found that out on the day they were going to couples counselling to try to repair their marriage. So...she cancelled the appointment. I don't know if I mentioned it or not, but he also lost his job so there is very little income coming in until he gets unemployment, so they are struggling in more ways than one.
For now, they are living together because there is little choice--the house must be sold (they are in over their heads), but they basically live separately. He still doesn't seem to understand that she is finished.
"Hey, I've got nothing to do today but smile..."
The Only Living Boy in New York, Paul Simon |
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Bear5
True Blue Farmgirl
13055 Posts
Louisiana/Texas
USA
13055 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2012 : 10:58:44 AM
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What a sad situation. No way would I still be living with him. It's good she has you as a friend.
Marly
"It's only when we truly know and understand that we have a limited time on earth- and that we have no way of knowing when our time is up- that we will begin to live each day to the fullest, as if it was the only one we had." Elisabeth Kurler-Ross |
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ClaireSky
True Blue Farmgirl
1792 Posts
Julie
Arcadia
WI
USA
1792 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2012 : 2:21:20 PM
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It is indeed a sad situation. I will be praying both of them and their children.
Julie
Farmgirl #399
Success is not the key to happiness. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. |
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Amie C.
True Blue Farmgirl
2099 Posts
Finger Lakes Region
NY
2099 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2012 : 4:59:58 PM
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| What a sad state of affairs. Hopefully the boys will still be able to have a relationship with their dad. Actually, maybe a better one in the long run. I'm thinking that now they'll only be spending time with him when he's healthy and able to truly interact with them. It can't be healthy for them to be exposed to/harmed by his illness. |
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Annab
True Blue Farmgirl
2900 Posts
Anna
Seagrove
NC
USA
2900 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2012 : 5:45:12 PM
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Sick, toxic, unhealthy
Why stick around any longer than she must
It will be better for her state of mind and for her children
poor thing. I am indeed very sorry. This is bad and i do hope she follows through with it and P.S. DOES NOT tell the husband where she intends to move but will stay in contact with the father of her children
This scares the crap out of me.....but any time there is threat of violence or there has been, my hackles go up immediately and I go into survival mode.
Sleeping With the Enemy has always been a favorite move of mine,, but it became a survival guide sad to admit too |
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Family Matters: Need to give girlfriend advice: UPDATE |
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Need to give girlfriend advice: UPDATE
