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Barnyard Buddies:  Livestock Guardians  |
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YakLady
True Blue Farmgirl
652 Posts
Natalie
Montana
USA
652 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 24 2011 : 1:57:45 PM
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Do any of you farmgirls use guardians on your property?
If so, what do you use? Llama? Donkey? Dogs?
What predators are your guards effective against? I'd love to read your stories :)
~~~
I have a single LGD currently, he's an Anatolian Shepherd/Great Pyrenees cross. He's going to be getting a pure ASD partner in December. She was just born :)
Since Dierks' arrival, we have suffered zero predation losses to the goat herd. His first week home (at 7 weeks old), he alerted to a black bear sow who hopped into the back yard to go after my buck- I chased her off and he only suffered skin-deep wounds to his back legs. Quite impressive for a puppy. He broke through a fence in the barn to chase a fox out of the baby pen, and he has helped us find treed 'coons to eliminate them. He's been worth every penny and then some, for sure!
~Natalie~ Just a farmgirl in Western Montana. http://mtnme.blogspot.com
Starting a family and raising Tibetan Yaks, Nigerian Dwarf Goats, Laying hens, Muscovy ducks, and a few dogs. |
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oldbittyhen
True Blue Farmgirl
1511 Posts
tina
quartz hill
ca
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2011 : 3:36:03 PM
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Natalie, I was immediatly going to strongly suggest "Anatolian Shepards", before I even finished reading your post, I love ASD's, they are wonderful guardian dogs, they are not pre-disposed to genetic problems, i.e., displaysia(sp), eye problems or other large dog problems...The breed is hundreds of years old, but very recent to the USA. They will protect any and all livestock, including poultry, they instinct is sooo strong, they need little training and almost no disapline, once they are shown something, even as a pup, you rarely need to re-show them. They use them in Africa to protect goat flocks from medium cats there, (think mountain lion size or a little bigger)and have had huge success. When I first got a demo from the breeders I bought my pair from, I was thinking, this is almost to good to be true, kept up research, and then thought to myself, even if they are only 50% of what they say, its better than any dog I've had, well I learned quickly that they are 101% or more...I have badgers, coyotes, bobcats, mt. lions, black bears, and the worst offender of all: stray dogs, usually in packs. I have lost "NOTHING", since haveing these great dogs, and will always have them on my place...(Also, they are great babysitters for my Grandkids also)
"Knowlege is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad" |
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Lieberkim
True Blue Farmgirl
839 Posts
Kimberly
Sunnyside
WASHINGTON
USA
839 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2011 : 5:56:16 PM
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I have a dog, Lady who is 1/2 border collie, 1/4 Anatolian Shepherd, 1/4 Maremma. Basically she looks like an Antaloian Shepherd with the border collie coloring. She's the BEST dog. We call her a plop dog because she's so relaxed and her favorite place is our verandah right beside the door. But she flat keeps everything away from our livestock. She doesn't seem to have any herding insticts but the guardian seems to be very strong. She'll eat food right beside a free range chicken and never make a move to harm it. She wants so desperately to be friends with the goats but although they are warming up to her they don't want to get to close yet. I trust her 100% around my livestock. On top of that, she is the perfect dog with the kids. I found my daughter one day lifter her lips and inspecting her teeth and Lady sat their calmly waiting for her to finish. Then she was going to check out the eyes and I stopped her but Lady would have just sat there and taken it. Predator wise I'd say our problems would be domesticated dogs gone wild, and neighbors dogs and cougars and coyotes. She's not a barker but when she barks you need to check why. Now that I've had her I know I'm an Anatolian Shepherd fan and I'd love to see a purebred in action.
Excuse the mess & the noise, my children are making happy memories |
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oldbittyhen
True Blue Farmgirl
1511 Posts
tina
quartz hill
ca
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2011 : 6:21:26 PM
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Kimberly, yes they are great, google them , there is alot of sites regarding the breed, and some great video clips...ferral dogs and recently dumped dogs, and on a rare occasion, a neighbors dog, that is usually a new neighbor who thinks their dogs should be able to go where ever it wants...and you are right, if mine bark, I'm out the door with a gun, cause they only bark when its really serious, which means unknown humans...
"Knowlege is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad" |
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grace gerber
True Blue Farmgirl
2804 Posts
grace
larkspur
colorado
USA
2804 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2011 : 7:07:16 PM
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I have three working hard Great Pry's, which have chased away not only coyotes and fox but also mountain lions and one bear. I have three working and well trained by me Llama's which have killed coyotes and a stray dog. They have also charged mountain lions at the fence line and given their alarm calls when anything they feel should not be around - that can be cattle which they hate, the neighbors horse who is a nutter and even strangers (people) and they even bit one person who climbed over our fence and was trying to take a lamb..
I also have great fences, lots of lights and I am a very light sleeper.. The issue with any guardian protection animal is training and that they are not just on their own. I have had many a breeder lose animals because they purchased a guardian protection animal only to either have the guardian fail or have the guardian kill one of the animals they are suppose to protect. My billies will even lock horns like a denfense line of football players and charge down the pasture to go after coyotes and even tresspassers. My Llama boy will stand behind me with his head on my shoulder while I stand outside with a customer - he wants them to know that he has my back and will not let anyone do something to me. While he is doing that I have three huge pry dogs who are growling low and steady while showing their purply whites. They all work together. I have not lost a single animal in 15 years while all around me have had many of their livestock killed...
Grace Gerber
Larkspur Funny Farm and Fiber Art Studio
Where the spirits are high and the fiber is deep
http://www.larkspurfunnyfarm.etsy.com
http://larkspurfunnyfarm.blogspot.com
http://larkspurfunnyfarm.artfire.com
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Dusky Beauty
True Blue Farmgirl
1108 Posts
Jen
Tonopah
AZ
USA
1108 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2011 : 7:08:40 PM
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I'm a part time Pyrenees advocate :) I love big fluffy dogs to begin with and the submissive and easygoing personality of pyrs to their owner and fierce reputation as guardians really sold me on them. Molly is the best dog ever even though she's 50/50 Pyr aussie shep
Grace has good advice though. It's best to use a guardian dog as part of a stock security "team". Just like a bank has more than just one guy patrolling the bank floor.
"The greatness of a nation and it's moral progress can be judged by the way it's animals are treated." ~Gandhi
http://silvermoonfarm.blogspot.com/
"After eating an entire bull, a mountain lion felt so good he started roaring. He kept it up until a hunter came along and shot him. The moral: When you're full of bull, keep your mouth shut.” ~Will Rogers |
Edited by - Dusky Beauty on Oct 24 2011 7:10:48 PM |
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Sheep Mom 2
True Blue Farmgirl
1534 Posts
Sheri
Elk
WA
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2011 : 9:53:09 PM
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I had Anatolian Shepherds for 18 years. At one time I had 4, 2 males and 2 females. When my last one died, I would have loved to have another but could not find any whose blood lines weren't questionable. I do not feel that Anatolian crosses are a good idea. I have seen many with less than desirable outcomes. I agree with Grace - training of any guardian dog is a must. Know the traits of the breed and train with those traits in mind. The breeder that I worked with for so long is sadly no longer with us and the person that took over her dogs did so much damage to the breed in this area I wouldn't trust one from around here. Anatolians have run off coyote, bear, and cougar in this area. I never had a coyote, ever on this place while I had them. I do miss them. Be sure with any large breed dog to make sure the parents have OFA certificates of Good or Very Good. There is nothing more heartbreaking than hip dysplasia.
Blessings, Sheri
"Work is Love made visible" -Kahlil Gibran
http://farmsteadfripperies.blogspot.com/ |
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YakLady
True Blue Farmgirl
652 Posts
Natalie
Montana
USA
652 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2011 : 10:13:16 PM
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I don't think anyone just gets a puppy and turns them out with stock without any training... If they do, the responsibility for any problems rests on the owner.
Dierks is 18 months old now and still under supervision with the stock. I don't know if you got the idea from my post that he wasn't trained, but he's been receiving training here since arrival.
He's half ASD and half Pyr. He looks like an Anatolian with thicker bone structure and dews on all four paws. He doesn't have any of the typical Pyrenees hang ups, and I'm very happy with him. He works very well for us here, so I'm not sure why you think a cross is a bad idea, Sheri. Many people have mixed breed guardians and have great success with them. I'm betting you are just a fan of the ASD breed and don't like them being bastardized. Totally understandable.
~Natalie~ Just a farmgirl in Western Montana. http://mtnme.blogspot.com
Starting a family and raising Tibetan Yaks, Nigerian Dwarf Goats, Laying hens, Muscovy ducks, and a few dogs. |
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Lieberkim
True Blue Farmgirl
839 Posts
Kimberly
Sunnyside
WASHINGTON
USA
839 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2011 : 11:07:26 PM
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Grace, I love your description of your dogs and llamas guarding you and yours. It reminds me of a time I was home alone and a neighbor who is known to be involved in drugs came driving in. They wouldn't get out of their truck and then I saw why. My Alaskan Malamute/Alaskan Husky (big white wolf looking dog) was in wolf stance pacing in their headlights with a rumbly growl that sounded like the hounds of hades. My Newfy/grt pry (the size of a pony) was standing on all fours looking in the window of their one ton and he too had evil sounds coming out of him. I opened the door stepped out and said, "Come!" And both dogs were instantly in front of me making a "V" shape. If those guys had been stupid enough to try anything they would have died that night. I need to point out that both dogs were big sweethearts. Children could climb all over them, they were my big babies with zero guard training but they sensed something was wrong and they were ready to protect me. The Malamute would always be relaxed when my Daddy was home but turned on the guard function if he was gone or I was alone. They'd both taken on coyotes and bears, moose, deer, etc. Actually, he saved me another time. I was walking at night (I enjoy the peace and solitude) and two guys got out of a pick up truck and started walking towards me. My Malamute went insane. I'd never seen him like that. He was lunging and snapping and the sounds coming out of him. Those guys took one look at my dog (about 120 pounds of solid dog) and got back in their truck. I started walking, quickly, for home and my dog was bouncing back and forth behind me, between them and me at all times. It was like we reached the magic point and he just suddenly stopped acting insane and walked beside me all happy again. As soon as we got home I went into the freezer and started digging around. My Daddy asked me what I was doing and I said I was looking for steak for Chick. He was rather surprised and asked me why. I told him and pretty soon Daddy was digging too.
Excuse the mess & the noise, my children are making happy memories |
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grace gerber
True Blue Farmgirl
2804 Posts
grace
larkspur
colorado
USA
2804 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2011 : 07:06:43 AM
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Good Morning Natalie
I wish it wasn't the case of folks buy a dog and setting it out with animals thinking they would do it just by nature. The most trouble I have had is with alpaca owners (remember I raised alpacas for 14 years so I can talk about them) who would call me when they had purchased a dog somewhere else, put the thing in with an expecting alpaca - baby born and the dog just wants to play and either runs the baby down and uses it for a chew toy or separates the baby from mom and the owners never stay with the baby and it does not drink or bond with mother and soon dies. Yes, I can't even tell you how many of those stories I have witnessed. Folks just are sometimes dumber then dirt - it is not the dogs fault but the humans.
I don't think Sheri was saying anything bad about cross bred dogs but what I have found is if the breeder does not know what they are doing they may compound a bad trait - some dogs just should not be bred together - personality traits, health traits and size issues..I have breed pure Pry's without any issues and created hard working, healthy sound dogs but that is not with all breeders...
I love your story Liberkim - I had a dear friend who raised Malamute/Husky dogs and they are so loyal and freeless. I bet you never felt scared again with them.... I also bred and raised American Eskimo Dogs and talk about loyal and hard working. They would move the animals, chase down small prediators and guard my kids with their life. My breeding girl lives with my oldest son and now she watches over their baby and is fearless and would give her life for him - she is 13 years old and going strong.
Natalie it sounds like Dierk is going to be a great asset to your farm and family... Can't wait to hear more about the sweet one.
Grace Gerber
Larkspur Funny Farm and Fiber Art Studio
Where the spirits are high and the fiber is deep
http://www.larkspurfunnyfarm.etsy.com
http://larkspurfunnyfarm.blogspot.com
http://larkspurfunnyfarm.artfire.com
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StrawHouseRanch
True Blue Farmgirl
1044 Posts
Paula
Holt
Missouri
USA
1044 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2011 : 07:22:22 AM
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If only I could let my mule run loose...she runs anything out of her pasture that doesn't neigh or whinnie. Unfortunately she apparently tried to run a skunk out once and she ended up wearing eau-de-pew for awhile.
Paula
Farmgirl Sister #3090
Yesterday is History, Tomorrow is a Mystery, and Today is a Gift.
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Sheep Mom 2
True Blue Farmgirl
1534 Posts
Sheri
Elk
WA
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2011 : 09:52:35 AM
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Good Morning! I know there are many cross bred guardian dogs that work out well, I didn't mean to imply anything against your dog. The reason I have a problem with cross bred Anatolians is that they have some real dominance issues and need to be trained correctly right out of the whelping pen. The risk to half breeds is that those dogs can end up as pets and the Anatolian traits that can become problematic if the owner doesn't know how to deal with them can cause the demise of the dog and potential injury to the unsuspecting owner. These are LARGE dogs. My male was over 200 lbs. Anatolians will dominate you if you do not know how to control this trait and establish yourself as the alpha when they are pups. I could write a book of sad outcomes from folks that got Anatolians without knowing the traits of this majestic breed and how to work with them. I wasn't trying to imply that your dog(s) aren't trained. I am happy that this combo is working out for you.
If I sound like my heart is on my sleeve that is because a breeder in our area destroyed the blood lines around here from reckless cross breeding and the resulting health issues in those dogs was a travesty. It broke my heart since I had animals that originated from that bloodline - the dogs were direct imports from Turkey and he managed to destroy the blood line in under 5 years. When my friend died, I took on one of her Turkish import males but unfortunately could not take them all. I worked very closely with her doing documentation on temperment testing, agility etc. and when she got too old to manage it, had one of her last litters here. He took on the remaining dogs and began an agressive breeding program. After seeing the health problems in those pups - well lets just suffice it to say there is more to a breeding animals than just making a buck. What ever breed of dog anyone chooses to buy be it a LSG or a pet - know your breeder.
Blessings, Sheri
"Work is Love made visible" -Kahlil Gibran
http://farmsteadfripperies.blogspot.com/ |
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oldbittyhen
True Blue Farmgirl
1511 Posts
tina
quartz hill
ca
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2011 : 10:16:47 AM
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Sheri, wow, 200plus lbs, i would love to see a picture of him, I have never seen an Anatolian that big, most males weigh around 120#, and that is still a big dog. The original breeder that I bought from was about an hour away from here, he was from Turkey and spoke very little english, but his wife was fluent, they did not advertise, I just happened to be at my Vet's when they came in for rabies shots, and we got to talking, and I just fell head over heels in love with the breed. I bought 2 pups from them about 1 yr later (unrelated, but I never bred)and they spent several days on and off here showing me the correct way of working, socializing, and staying alpha...it was all done quietly, and softly, and more often than not, only once and the dogs never forgot, even as pups. I will never own any other guardian breed, these dogs are the one and only for me...
"Knowlege is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad" |
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MEWolf
True Blue Farmgirl
358 Posts
Margaret
Byers
Colorado
USA
358 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2011 : 10:20:39 AM
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We have two donkeys that guard our horses. Donkeys have a natural aversion to any thing canine, which is why find them effective. Our male "Honka" is the more hard working of the pair, as he takes his job very seriously, and is all business when there are dogs, coyotes and wolves about. Although I have seen Honka and Sissy work in tandem when our herd was being worried by a pair of rather nasty pit bulls.
One of our neighbor's has a lovely dog who just adores coming to visit me. She is not aggressive, does not worry the horses, just wants some affection. She came to visit one day while I was cleaning manure from the corral. Honka and Sissy spotted her and came to stand next to me, as a matter of fact, they would not leave my side. Every time the neighbor's dog tried to come in the corral to get petted, they chased her away. We adore our donkeys, not just for the job they do, but because they are very bonded to us.
Margaret
“Kind hearts are the gardens, kind thoughts are the roots, kind words are the flowers, kind deeds are the fruits. Take care of your garden and keep out the weeds, fill it with sunshine, kind words and kind deeds.” ~Henry Wadsworth Longfellow (1808-1882)
Farmgirl #3020
www.grey-wolf-farm.com |
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Sheep Mom 2
True Blue Farmgirl
1534 Posts
Sheri
Elk
WA
USA
1534 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2011 : 10:55:36 AM
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Hi Tina. Here are some pics of Turk. He was the biggest Anatolian I ever saw. I am trying to post some pics that give more of an idea of size.
This is Turk poking his head in with the young meat chickens - he counted heads every morning.
 
This a pic of him sitting on the floor in front of me and my daughter just to give some size perspective.
Blessings, Sheri
"Work is Love made visible" -Kahlil Gibran
http://farmsteadfripperies.blogspot.com/ |
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Lieberkim
True Blue Farmgirl
839 Posts
Kimberly
Sunnyside
WASHINGTON
USA
839 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2011 : 12:31:38 PM
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WOW! That's a big dog!!!!!! I sure wouldn't mess with you or your livestock just because of the look of him!!
Excuse the mess & the noise, my children are making happy memories |
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YakLady
True Blue Farmgirl
652 Posts
Natalie
Montana
USA
652 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2011 : 12:37:25 PM
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Grace- That is horrid, and people who do that shouldn't have animals. I researched breeds and training techniques for a long time before getting my dog. It's up to the humans to make sure a dog is ready for the responsibility of being with a herd full-time and unsupervised. Instinct doesn't equate training, and some instincts aren't desirable in all situations. Every farm/ranch is different.
Sheri- Have you looked into Shepherd's Rest over in Oregon? They have Turk imported males, and run a tight ship from what I could tell. Unfortunately, I'm just not in the place to spend that kind of money on a puppy right now. It's a dream for me to have one of their dogs here :)
http://shepherdsrest.blogspot.com/
Turk is a gorgeous (HUGE) boy! Dierks is only 130, plenty big for my taste! I'll get some updated pictures of him today...
~Natalie~ Just a farmgirl in Western Montana. http://mtnme.blogspot.com
Starting a family and raising Tibetan Yaks, Nigerian Dwarf Goats, Laying hens, Muscovy ducks, and a few dogs. |
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YakLady
True Blue Farmgirl
652 Posts
Natalie
Montana
USA
652 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2011 : 12:56:14 PM
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Kimberly- Your stories show the power of training in large breeds. A well trained dog is such a powerful asset to their master.
Margaret- Donkeys are awesome- have you had any problems with them and newborn stock? I've heard horror stories of guard donkeys kicking and killing young because they're not a part of the established herd. I'm sure it's just a training issue, though, just like with dogs.
Our yaks are very anti-canine. Especially the bull- he knows the property line, and if anything gets too close, he gets highly agitated and lets them know it. He doesn't kick, he fork-lifts with the horns and throws intruders. It's actually neat to watch, if it's not your dog... Dierks does his fence work quickly in the yak pen :)
~Natalie~ Just a farmgirl in Western Montana. http://mtnme.blogspot.com
Starting a family and raising Tibetan Yaks, Nigerian Dwarf Goats, Laying hens, Muscovy ducks, and a few dogs. |
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Lieberkim
True Blue Farmgirl
839 Posts
Kimberly
Sunnyside
WASHINGTON
USA
839 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2011 : 1:16:51 PM
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Grace,
Chick Bowdrie and I had a special relationship. When he was a baby I protected him, during his prime he protected me, when he grew older I protected him again. Often times if you were looking for me you'd find me laying on the grass and Chickie was my pillow. He'd never let me out of his sight. Even when he was in trouble for destroying my mom's flowerbeds he'd make sure he could see me. Sometimes, I'd try to hide from him and if he actually didn't know where I was he'd grow frantic till he found me. He was my best friend bar none. I miss him so much and it's been so long. If only his life span was the same as mine I'd have kept him my whole life with joy. He was the self proclaimed protector of all horses. He'd stand between the horses foaling and the coyotes and dare them to come closer. One time he freaked out my neighbor because he was hanging out by her place and her mares were foaling. I told her he was there to protect them from the coyotes (did I mention that some of our coyotes were the size of wolves???? They were in such big packs that they were taking calves, foals and even adult cows in our area, never mind all the sheep.) but if she wanted I'd come bring him home. She said he could stay!! Everyone loved my Chickie, I kid you not. People would stop and offer me money for him and I'd decline. One friend kept asking if he could have him and finally I told him there are only two ways to get this dog. Murder me or marry me because the dog and I stay together for life. Once Chick got kicked in the head by a frolicking horse, I was so distraught. I took him to the vet and he layed against me with such pain in his eyes. I held him gently and whispered to him. When the vet came in he was one that I knew not to be overly gentle when handling animals and I stood guard over Chick and informed him that he'd better not hurt my dog. My daddy told him the girl and dog had a special relationship, he answered he could see that. And he was beyond gentle with Chick. Wise on his part. I have so many memories of that dog. When I went away to Bible College I couldn't take him with me (almost didn't go because of that) and he quit eating. I begged my parents to spoon feed him. I was ready to drive across two provinces to make sure he ate. But my parents were able to get him eating again. One winter I saw him shiver. I'd never seen that dog cold. In 40 below he'd lay in a metal wheelbarrow we had bird feed in just to annoy the birds. They'd sit in the trees and curse at him and you could just see him smile, hang his head over the wheelbarrow and pant. This dog LOVED the frigid cold. And now he was shivering. I brought him in the house to warm him up. It continued to be a problem the whole winter. I knew we were drawing to the end. Around the same time I saw him back off a bone from a coyote! Keep in mind we called Chick the tank because he wasn't real fast but when he got there the coyotes scattered with missing or injured parts. No coyote had ever backed him down ever. He'd faced bears, charging moose; coyotes were nothing. And then I knew it was his last winter. He continued to decline. I gave him the best summer and fall I could. We'd go riding (his favorite thing), we'd lay in the grass and snuggle, we'd do everything he loved to do. I gave him the best I could and then when winter came I took him into the vet for the last time. I layed over him and bawled for so long. They kept coming in to check on me and kept quietly leaving. Finally I was able to get up and take my darling home. I buried him by our Coulee, where we loved to explore and play. It's become the place where my parents bury our beloved animals. Any time I go home to visit I make a trip to Chick Bowdrie's grave and say hi and I love you.
I'm sorry. Once I start talking about my Chick Bowdrie I just can't stop. He was the best dog.
Excuse the mess & the noise, my children are making happy memories |
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MEWolf
True Blue Farmgirl
358 Posts
Margaret
Byers
Colorado
USA
358 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2011 : 2:08:22 PM
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Natalie, we have not and we have raised several babies. It may be a matter of training, but more importantly IMHO, whenever you introduce any new stock to established herd, it should be done carefully. We have introduced several new horses to our herd (including a 5 month old baby) but they spend months meeting over the fence before we put them together. And then we still feed them separately for the first two weeks. Donkeys have been so great for us and our herd.
Margaret
“Kind hearts are the gardens, kind thoughts are the roots, kind words are the flowers, kind deeds are the fruits. Take care of your garden and keep out the weeds, fill it with sunshine, kind words and kind deeds.” ~Henry Wadsworth Longfellow (1808-1882)
Farmgirl #3020
www.grey-wolf-farm.com |
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YakLady
True Blue Farmgirl
652 Posts
Natalie
Montana
USA
652 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2011 : 3:09:03 PM
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Kimberly, your story brought tears to my eyes! You're so blessed to have had Chick in your life :) Every girl should be so lucky to have a dog like him.
~Natalie~ Just a farmgirl in Western Montana. http://mtnme.blogspot.com
Starting a family and raising Tibetan Yaks, Nigerian Dwarf Goats, Laying hens, Muscovy ducks, and a few dogs. |
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Barnyard Buddies: Livestock Guardians |
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Livestock Guardians
