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Family Matters:  Loving Without Caring  |
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kristin sherrill
True Blue Farmgirl
11303 Posts
kristin
chickamauga
ga
USA
11303 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 24 2011 : 09:47:24 AM
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I was at my friend's house the other day and looking at magazines. I would never have seen this article if I had not been there because I do not really like it. But the front cover grabbed my attention. it was Oprah's magazine. There was an article about doing nothing. I thought that would be interesting to read. But it turned out to be exactly what I needed to read.
The title is "I Don't Care". Hmm... Good so far. Then it says, "How do you get your nearest and dearest to change their behavior? Love them unconditionally. And how do you do that? Stop giving a damn what they do." Wow. How simple is that?
This is by Martha Beck. She goes on to say she was counseling a friend who was in an abusive marriage. They had just had an intervention. And her friend was quite mad at her family. She was saying how it felt like they were attacking her. They judge her, they criticize her. Nothing she did was good enough for them. They were just like her husband.
Martha was trying not to say "what is wrong with you?" when it dawned on her that she had a point. Her family was not abusing her like he did but they were not accepting her as she was. They needed her to change. They raised their voices, made demands, pushed hard. And their intense negative emotions were triggering her fear and defensiveness.
(Can some of you see how this was just for me?)
It was in the midst of processing all this that suddenly Martha heard herself say, " Well, Loretta, I just love you. I don't care what happens to you." ( I am not sure how I feel about this but it does make sense.)
"Loretta visible relaxed. She felt her own anxiety vanishing, too, leaving a quiet space where she could treat Loretta kindly. It was true- I really didn't care what happened to her. No matter what she did, I wouldn't love her one bit less."
Since then she has found that loving without caring is a useful approach in most relationships, especially families.
To care for someone can mean to adore them, feed them, tend their wounds. But care can also mean sorrow, as in "bowed down by cares." Or anxiety, as in "Careful!" Or investment in an outcome, as in "Who cares?" The word love has no such meaning: It's pure acceptance. She says caring is not love. In fact, when care appears, unconditional loves vanishes.
Our brains are designed to mirror one another. As a result, when we are anxious and controlling, other people don't respond with compiance; they reflect us by becoming anxious and controlling. Anger elicits anger, fear elicits fear, no matter how well meaning we may be. When Loretta's family insisted she leave her abusive husband, she insisted on staying. (She actually did leave him eventually.)
So anyway, it goes on about how to change our own behavior. AA tells us that sanity begins the moment we admit we are powerless over other people. Granting ourselves that freedom is one of the healthiest, most constructive things we can do for ourselves and the people who matter to us.
I immediately thought of my Dd, H. I do love her. I don't honestly think at this point I can say I don't care what happens to her. What do y'all think? I kind of understand her point. That when we back off and let them live their own life, they will. And they will be OK, no matter what happens.
I really needed to read this. It has already taken a load off me.
Kris
Happiness is simple. |
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oldbittyhen
True Blue Farmgirl
1511 Posts
tina
quartz hill
ca
USA
1511 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2011 : 10:38:30 AM
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I have had times in my family and friends lives that I have said:"I will ALWAYS love you, no matter what, BUT, there are times I DO NOT like you", I would tend to think that my reasoning is very similar to that of the artical you read...
"Knowlege is knowing that a tomato is a fruit, Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad" |
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embchicken
True Blue Farmgirl
1487 Posts
Elaine
Ocean
NJ
USA
1487 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2011 : 10:43:04 AM
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You know the first time I read the sentence "I don't care what happens to you" I taken a little aback. But then I really started thinking...you know , in a weird sort of way it makes complete sense. I have some raletionships where this would be very apprpriate to do. I think I am going to give it a whirl! Thanks for posting.
~ Elaine
Farmgirl sister #2822
"Find yourself a cup of tea; the teapot is behind you. Now tell me about hundreds of things." ~Saki
http://embchicken.blogspot.com
http://gusandtrudy.blogspot.com |
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kristin sherrill
True Blue Farmgirl
11303 Posts
kristin
chickamauga
ga
USA
11303 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2011 : 3:39:52 PM
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Well, I really feel ok with this. I am at a point with my Dd that I cannot do a thing to help her. Nothing. I have tried all I know and I just have to STOP for my own health and sanity. I will always love her. She is my child. But I do not like what she is doing. And I cannot do a thing about it. So this really does make sense to me right now.
Of course there are alot of other people in my life that I will have to do the same thing with. I'm sure we all do.
I don't know what month this article was published. But apparently Marths Beck is a contributing writer for Oprah magazine. I really like her. She has written several books also. I will have to check them out.
Kris
Happiness is simple. |
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farmmilkmama
True Blue Farmgirl
2027 Posts
Amy
Central MN
USA
2027 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2011 : 6:08:54 PM
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I totally get what you are talking about, Kris. I'm so glad that article was there for you to read. I think many of us need to hear that, just plain and simple and out there. I'm sorry the relationship is like it is with your daughter...sounds similar in feeling to the one I have with my sister (although the situations are probably different). I'm glad the Oprah magazine was there for you to read...and that you took the time to read it!
--* FarmMilkMama *--
Be yourself.
Everyone else is already taken.
-Oscar Wilde
www.farmfoodmama.blogspot.com |
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mindy_marie
Farmgirl in Training
20 Posts
Mindy
Fargo
ND
USA
20 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2011 : 6:44:59 PM
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Kristin, thank you for posting this. I read it and realized I have, for a long time, been so concerned about the people I love, caring so much about them, that I have NEVER given someone the gift of unconditional love. I just started dating someone who's wonderful and I think I'm going to give this a try, it's so simple and makes so much sense. I can't believe I never thought of it that way before. Thank you!!!
Mindy
Farmgirl #3290 |
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MagnoliaWhisper
True Blue Farmgirl
2817 Posts
Heather
Haysville
Kansas
USA
2817 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2011 : 7:28:05 PM
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Well, really you will save yourself a LOT of grief with this way of thinking/feeling. It will still hurt for a while, you have to learn to turn those feelings off. However, the thing we ALL must learn is every one has free will, and no matter how much we would like for a person to change, or do something different, especially for their own good. Said person has to make that choice themselves. So by obsessing over it and worrying ourselves sick over it we are only hurting ourselves.
Often times also when people step back out of it, it snaps the person to reality about what they should do.
I find that also in my religion. God doesn't force any one to worship him or obey him. It has to be out of their freewill that they choose to do so. When some people take the course of disobedience to God, or no longer want to worship him. Sometimes others backing off and leaving them to themselves (while still feeling affection and love for said person) snaps them to reality in what is important to them and is just the thing that brings them back to God, and not all the begging, pleading and sorrow that their parents or other loved ones do at all works.
I've found for my own sanity I have to let my family members make their own choices, no matter how bad or how stupid and set back and let them do it. Also sit back and let them reap what ever consequences occur there of! Otherwise, I'm in constant turmoil and nervous, sick etc. Once I just let it go and love them as my family but not worry about what they choose to do life has been much easier. I just wish my mom would do the same. However, she used to call and whine to me constantly about her family and how they hurt her once again-usually cause she allowed them to do so. When I would start right away telling her how she could avoid that-NOT giving a drunk/drug addict money and expecting it back, telling her what have you learned in the last 30 years of doing this with said person, has said person EVER in their life paid you back once? Why did you think this time would be different, etc? Instead of saying oh poor you, all the time. She stopped whining to me about these problems too! lol haha But, really it got to be such a pity party all the time it was crazy, and especially when she could just "learn" from her own mistakes and quit making the same one over and over again if SHE chose to! I was pretty glad to stop hearing her poor me stories about how she is always the victim. I can't say I am NEVER a victim, but very little compared to her. Cause I just don't put myself in those victim positions. I think that has a lot to do with things too. Recognizing this is the kind of person this person is, and don't fall for their stuff over and over. Instead of wishing and fantasizing the person is some other type of person!
http://www.heathersprairie.blogspot.com |
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MrsRooster
True Blue Farmgirl
1168 Posts
Amy
Seabrook
TX
USA
1168 Posts |
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FebruaryViolet
True Blue Farmgirl
4810 Posts
Jonni
Elsmere
Kentucky
USA
4810 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2011 : 07:57:36 AM
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To me that's just a heap of words for boundaries. And those are really important things to have when dealing with a family member or person who hasn't any. Kris, I remember being married (the first go round) to an alcoholic and I did everything to try to stop him from drinking and driving. Even went as far to enable him TO drink, as long as I was the one driving. Not only did that make me an enabler, it also made me controlling. So, during counseling one week, the counselor said to me, you can love him and worry about him, but you have to let him makes mistakes. This is "his" stuff--you don't own it, though it affects you adversely, you cannot stop it. So you have to figure out "how" to live with this person and draw your line in the sand. It was good advice.
Once he realized I wasn't going to go out on a limb to make things "ok" for him--wasn't going to bail him out of jail when he was arrested for DUI, didn't buy beer so he could "drink at home", but, I was always fair and good natured, but didn't overextend myself, a great deal of his behavior went by the wayside. Unfortunately, it was too late for both of us, but I don't regret it at all. I have far better boundaries now!!!
Musings from our family in the Bluegrass http://sweetvioletmae.blogspot.com/ |
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kristin sherrill
True Blue Farmgirl
11303 Posts
kristin
chickamauga
ga
USA
11303 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2011 : 09:11:54 AM
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Jonni, that is great advice. Too bad it was too late though. I don't know why it's so hard to stop being controlling and enabling. But it is. Once we do realize we are only hurting that person and ourselves, then we can let go and let them do whatever they are going to do. Sometimes it helps and sometimes it doesn't. It's not up to us anymore is all.
Amy, I wish I could put the whole article on here but would take oto long. It's really good. But like Jonni said, it's just about boundaries really.
Heather, you are right about God and free will. We are really only accountable for ourselve when it comes down to it. No one else, just me. I have SO much to learn!
Like right now my Dd is out of minutes. There is no way to talk to her. So she is on her own. My other Dd called this morning and said she had talked to her this weekend and she said Kansas is having trouble with the other kids. But I can't help her. H is going to have to work it out herself. And ya know what? She will.
Kris
Happiness is simple. |
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Aunt Jenny
True Blue Farmgirl
11381 Posts
Jenny
middle of
Utah
USA
11381 Posts |
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FarmDream
True Blue Farmgirl
1085 Posts
Julie
TX
USA
1085 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2011 : 3:45:24 PM
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Boundaries is right. And not playing into people's drama's. A lot of people will stop bothering you with their emotional games if you stop playing. Some people get a "thrill" out of chaos and they like to egg it on. Once you stop, you're no longer fulfilling that need for them to misbehave. I have known someone who liked to throw out an emotionally charged statement and get me and another friend all riled up against each other and then she would sit back and watch the fireworks. Once I told her that she was a pot stirrer, probably based on being raised in a large dysfunctional family, she faded into the distance. I'm no longer her "game."
~FarmDream is Farmgirl Sister #3069
Live Today, Cherish Yesterday, Dream Tomorrow
http://naturaljulie.etsy.com
http://julie-rants.blogspot.com |
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buggysmum
True Blue Farmgirl
110 Posts
Shelly
110 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2011 : 4:19:46 PM
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| I read this yesterday and had to "digest" it for a day or so...and sure enough, enough situations came up over the course of the day that made me reflect on it very seriously. This is basically talking about healthy boundaries and freeing oneself from codependence. Two very important people in my life have quite a bit of drama going on. One creates it herself. The other one is a victim and an enabler and very codependent. I, on the other hand, am a sponge for whatever negativity, turmoil, or anxiety they happen to be talking about...which leaves me a wreck whenever I've been around them...which is MY issue...so this "I don't care" approach is very healthy. I can love people without embroiling myself in whatever drama is going on...without drowning in it. Because that doesn't help them OR me. |
Edited by - buggysmum on Jul 26 2011 03:53:54 AM |
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kristin sherrill
True Blue Farmgirl
11303 Posts
kristin
chickamauga
ga
USA
11303 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2011 : 5:05:36 PM
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There are definetely alot of dramatic people that just feed on wreaking havoc on everyone around them all the time. I heard a preacher saying that most people do not want to be healed of their sickness or health problems because then they would have nothing to complain or talk about. And alot of people do not want to be happy either. I have so much to think about. This is my "alone" week. I am doing alot of thinking while I am cleaning. I hope I can absorb some good feelings and vibes so I can stay healthy anyway.
M, did you read that whole article about the 4 steps?
Kris
Happiness is simple. |
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buggysmum
True Blue Farmgirl
110 Posts
Shelly
110 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2011 : 03:55:07 AM
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Kris, no,I only read what you wrote. Is it in this month's Oprah? Is it online?
Shelly |
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dutchy
True Blue Farmgirl
4427 Posts
4427 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2011 : 04:07:54 AM
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In a way...yes I too can relate. But I can't SEE myself saying "I don't care what happens to you"
I do think , for me, it would have been better if I had said, "I LOVE you but I don't LIKE you".
It would have been better for MY sanity. but if I would have said THAT, H*** would have broken loose in my house. I know that for a fact so...but bet the article leaves you (in general) with a lot of food for thought.
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Hugs from Marian/Dutchy, a farmgirl from the Netherlands :)
http://pinkprincessdecorating.blogspot.com/
Almost daily updates on me, my home and my crafts
Farmgirl sister # 2410 |
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dutchy
True Blue Farmgirl
4427 Posts
4427 Posts |
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kristin sherrill
True Blue Farmgirl
11303 Posts
kristin
chickamauga
ga
USA
11303 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2011 : 05:39:36 AM
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M, I never did see a date on the front but I know it was from the last few issues.
I know, Marian. I have a hard time with the "I don't care what happens to you" too. I will go see what you posted now. Thanks.
Kris
Happiness is simple. |
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kristin sherrill
True Blue Farmgirl
11303 Posts
kristin
chickamauga
ga
USA
11303 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2011 : 05:40:40 AM
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Yes, that is the whole article. Thank you for the link. Now I hope everyone will go read it. It is SO good.
Kris
Happiness is simple. |
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FebruaryViolet
True Blue Farmgirl
4810 Posts
Jonni
Elsmere
Kentucky
USA
4810 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2011 : 05:45:27 AM
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Ironically, this goes with what I watched last night on PBS: The American Masters series about John Lennon, NYC. And I'm going to write these words that I've NEVER said or written before: Poor, poor Yoko. I always loved John, but this was such an insightful view into their relationship and he suffered from drama lust and she was largley placed into the role of his mother, his best friend, and THEN his spouse. Very interesting dynamic, and so very destructive. Kris, if you get a chance to see it, it's repeated now and again and it's well worth it (if you were ever a Beatles or John Lennon fan).
Musings from our family in the Bluegrass http://sweetvioletmae.blogspot.com/ |
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Tall Holly
True Blue Farmgirl
2305 Posts
Holly
Worcester
Vermont
USA
2305 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2011 : 06:57:08 AM
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One of our sons moved out just before his 18th birhtday. He knew everything. He called home on a regular basis and one phone call he said, D ( his birhtmother) said you do not like the my friends. I said, I do not know your friends to like them or not but they are not the people I would have chosen for you to hang out with. What is the matter with them he asked? I said, well, do they have a library card? No, he replied. and he got it. Reading is very important in our family and reading is your path to information.
Now when ever he is in a new relationship he calls home to tell me whether his friends have a library card. If they do not he is sure to tell me that they are readers and have stacks of books.
He came to live with us at 8 1/2 years old. there were bets out in the mental health community that served his family that he would be in the state juvenile detention center by the time he was 9. I spent the next ten years or so creating programs and running in front of him to make sure he was successful. We worked hard to have him realize that he is a good person and he has a lot to offer. When he moved out it was very hard to step back and allow him to make obvious mistakes and fail and fall flat on his face. I would hear from community members, do you know what K is doing? and I thanked them for their interest and breathed. I did a lot of breathing.
After he left he would call home and tell me what was going on in his life. He would tell me of things he did that he knew I would not approve. I told him over and over again, "It is your life" After two years or so he finally asked why do you always say, "It is your life" and I told him.
He finally started to get his act together when he was 27. He is now self supporting and in a relationship of equal power base.
Holly
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Tall Holly
True Blue Farmgirl
2305 Posts
Holly
Worcester
Vermont
USA
2305 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2011 : 07:07:31 AM
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from Kristins quote.I heard a preacher saying that most people do not want to be healed of their sickness or health problems because then they would have nothing to complain or talk about. And alot of people do not want to be happy either.
One of my other sons Leo is a healer. H edoes energy work. He makes peole feel good. He is non verbal and commnicates with signs and gestures. If he knows you are feeling bad and want to feel better he will touch you even momentarily whatever yhou will allow and later you notice you feel better. However, if you are feeling bad and do not want to beel better he will go no where near you.
He has a gift.
Holly
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Tall Holly
True Blue Farmgirl
2305 Posts
Holly
Worcester
Vermont
USA
2305 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2011 : 07:27:34 AM
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Kris- you are in a hard place when it comes to what to do about Kansas. Grandparents often have no rights and taking on full time responsibility for her is a total mind and lifestyle adjustment that only you could decide. Watching the parent screw up and the child suffer is hard for me.
You could let things be as they are.
You could set up a regular visitation schedule with Kansas for Kansas and you. Not to give your daughter respite.
You could have kansas come and live with you. After a while you could petition the court for guardianship or custody. This is complicated if your dd does not live in your school district and you need to register her for school. If this situation comes to pass you could consult with the court for your options.
Holly
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kristin sherrill
True Blue Farmgirl
11303 Posts
kristin
chickamauga
ga
USA
11303 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2011 : 08:12:28 AM
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Jonni, I never was a big fan of the Beatles. But I do like some of their songs. I will check out the PBS show though. I watched Micheal Jackson't last rehersals before he dies the other night. So sad. Anyway, thanks for the info. I always felt that way about Yoko.
Holly, it sounds like you know what you are doing. I like that waht you would tell him. It's your life. I need to remember that whith my Dd. And it looks like he has finally gotten his life together. It's such a shame that it takes so long though. H is 33. And your other son sounds amazing. Would love to meet him.
I was going to keep Kansas here. But she is such a momma's girl. She loves her mom so much and was really missing her. She is all she has really besides us. I know when H has her that she is more responsible. It is hard watching people screw up and not be able to do a thing about it. This is definetely NOT how I thought my family would be. But it never works out how you think anyway. I have always heard if you want to make God laugh, tell Him your plans for your life. Well, I guess He showed me.
Kris
Happiness is simple. |
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Tall Holly
True Blue Farmgirl
2305 Posts
Holly
Worcester
Vermont
USA
2305 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2011 : 09:10:31 AM
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Don't beat yourself up over your dd choices. As parents we do our best to do well by our children. I have thought about why some children grow up to not be problem solvers or contributors. At this point I have decided that it is not how some one was raised but how much innate resilience a person has.
For example, many of the young people who are currently incarcerated were neglected or abused or both, however, many more people were as well but they chose a different path and are doing well. Why is one person a contributor and another a taker.
I guess when that question is answered I could solve many of the problems of the world.
hugs to you for sticking by your dd and grand dd.
Holly
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Bear5
True Blue Farmgirl
13055 Posts
Louisiana/Texas
USA
13055 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2011 : 9:09:47 PM
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Kris:
I would probably have said what Dutchy advised, "I love you but I don't like you right now".
I heart hurts for anyone going through such sadness. When I am having issues of such, and my heart begins to ache, I know it is time for me to give it to my Lord. I usually verbally say, "Here Lord, please handle this for me." I always feel better after that.
Hugs.
Marly
"It's only when we truly know and understand that we have a limited time on earth- and that we have no way of knowing when our time is up- that we will begin to live each day to the fullest, as if it was the only one we had." Elisabeth Kurler-Ross |
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Family Matters: Loving Without Caring |
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Loving Without Caring
