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Gathered Up:  Christian farmgirls?  |
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laurentany
True Blue Farmgirl
3259 Posts
Laurie
Patchogue
NY
USA
3259 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 22 2012 : 8:36:32 PM
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Sending positive thoughts and prayers to everyone. I know for sure that we all struggle internally with different things that have happened along the way in our lives. I pray that we all have the wisdom and insight to know we must forgive ourselves and others, as so much is not in our control.
Peace and Blessings to all of my dear farmgirl sisters!
~Laurie
"Little Hen House on the Island"
Farmgirl Sister#1403
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.. |
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smiley
True Blue Farmgirl
650 Posts
lea
pea ridge
arkansas
USA
650 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 04:44:40 AM
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| Good morning.I too love that song and had forgotten about it. Thank you. What timing. My salon is in a small town about 20 min. either direction from large areas. Its busy. For health reasons Tue a girl I have had working there 5 years quit and now I am searching for a new stylist.She quit while another was on vacation. Its spring break and I have worked the remaining one to death! I know God uses me behind that chair. That is where my ministry is. I hate finding new help. Its so hard to convince them that even though we are off the beaten path God is there and He keeps it busy. Some are bothered by the Christian music we play.I know many of you are going thru huge trials and this seems trivial compared to that but would pray God sends me the right person soon? Thanks |
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Calicogirl
True Blue Farmgirl
5216 Posts
Sharon
Bruce Crossing
Michigan
USA
5216 Posts |
Posted - Mar 23 2012 : 4:19:15 PM
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PeggyAnn,
That is a hard thing to do isn't it? Several years ago I was really struggling with something that I had done. I just could not bring myself to forgive myself UNTIL a mentor asked me...
"What makes YOU so big, that God can forgive you but you cannot forgive yourself?"
OUCH! I could feel myself shrinking. And you know that God is SO FAITHFUL and JUST to forgive us of our sins when we repent, that there is no need to hang on to them. He forgets them and even though it's hard, we need to let go and let God. We learn from our mistakes and can always use that to encourage others. Yes, sometimes we still have to deal with the consequences of those actions, BUT He can restore us IF we let Him :)
I will be praying for you concerning this, I know it's difficult.
Blessings to all! Ladies, I am lifting up your needs to the Father.
By His Grace, For His Glory
~Sharon
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Edited by - Calicogirl on Mar 23 2012 4:25:24 PM |
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Ninibini
True Blue Farmgirl
7577 Posts
Nini
Pennsylvania
USA
7577 Posts |
Posted - Mar 24 2012 : 09:16:25 AM
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SO true, Sharon! I'm definitely going to remember that!
Girls - I'm praying for you! Whenever those memories of the past come flooding in, I'm just keeping in mind that that was then, this is now. I'm so grateful to be able to celebrate His salvation and the transformation He has brought about in me - there are no words!
Have a great weekend!
Hugs -
Nini
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(") (")*
Farmgirl Sister #1974
God gave us two hands... one to help ourselves, and one to help others!
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FieldsofThyme
Farmgirl Guide & Schoolmarm / Chapter Leader
4928 Posts
USA
4928 Posts |
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ceejay48
Farmgirl Legend/Schoolmarm/Sharpshooter
13664 Posts
CeeJay (CJ)
Dolores
Colorado
USA
13664 Posts |
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LadyInRed
True Blue Farmgirl
6740 Posts
PeggyAnn
Vancouver
WA
USA
6740 Posts |
Posted - Mar 28 2012 : 01:28:47 AM
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Lea...I am praying that God will send you just the right gal for your Shoppe. And I think it is
so awesome that you play Christian music. Music is a huge witness as it is...besides the Ministry
you are able to do on a One-on-One basis with your clients. God will provide!
Sharon...thank you for the Word of Truth. I heard God speaking to me through you. Thanks for being
a willing vessel.
Love and Appreciate you all so much,
Peggy
Farmgirl #1326
http://ladyinredsite.blogspot.com
"Leave Your Cares Behind...Join Us On The Porch"
"I'm only as strong as the caffeine I drink, the hair-spray I use and the Girlfriends that I have."
When I was a lonely wallflower, Jesus asked me to dance. Then he asked me to be His! |
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smiley
True Blue Farmgirl
650 Posts
lea
pea ridge
arkansas
USA
650 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2012 : 6:32:35 PM
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| Praise Report!!!!!Have a new stylist!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for your prayers. God is so Good! |
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LadyInRed
True Blue Farmgirl
6740 Posts
PeggyAnn
Vancouver
WA
USA
6740 Posts |
Posted - Mar 29 2012 : 11:13:19 PM
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Awesome Lea...God is Faithful!
blessings,
peggy
Farmgirl #1326
http://ladyinredsite.blogspot.com
"Leave Your Cares Behind...Join Us On The Porch"
"I'm only as strong as the caffeine I drink, the hair-spray I use and the Girlfriends that I have."
When I was a lonely wallflower, Jesus asked me to dance. Then he asked me to be His! |
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Ninibini
True Blue Farmgirl
7577 Posts
Nini
Pennsylvania
USA
7577 Posts |
Posted - Mar 30 2012 : 06:31:21 AM
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Congratulations, Lea! I'm so happy for you! Hugs - Nini
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(") (")*
Farmgirl Sister #1974
God gave us two hands... one to help ourselves, and one to help others!
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smiley
True Blue Farmgirl
650 Posts
lea
pea ridge
arkansas
USA
650 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2012 : 5:17:01 PM
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| Is everyone getting ready for Easter? What an exciting time for believers!! |
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knittinchick
True Blue Farmgirl
1854 Posts
Megan
Wisconsin
1854 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2012 : 7:29:38 PM
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Hi everyone!
I just wanted to share with you all that watching the movie Courageous has changed my life and has inspired me to dedicate myself to my faith. There was one part in particular that really inspired me. A character was explaining to his friend that Jesus died on the cross to take on the punishment and suffering of our sins, and then when I went to church this morning, I was just thinking, Jesus knowingly gave his life for me. It was just a great day for my faith, and I can't wait for Easter to come!
God's and Farmgirl's Blessings,
Megan
At heart, I am both a sassy city girl and a down-home country gal.
The dictionary is the only place where success comes before work. |
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Ninibini
True Blue Farmgirl
7577 Posts
Nini
Pennsylvania
USA
7577 Posts |
Posted - Apr 01 2012 : 7:40:54 PM
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Awesome, Megan! Good to "see" you! You know, I haven't seen that movie yet, but I would love to share that the movie, "Fireproof" had a very strong affect in my husband's heart, too. He never likes to watch those "chick flicks," but one day he was reading the paper, so I decided to put it on the t.v. Suddenly, I heard his paper go down, and then I realized he was watching it with me. I asked if he wanted me to change the channel, and he said, "No, that's fine." When it was over, he just kept saying, "That was really a good movie." And, I'm happy to report, I've caught him watching it when I wasn't around, too! ;) I can't wait to see "Courageous!"
Lea - yes, we're getting ready for Easter! Our custom is to take this week off of regular homeschool studies and focus on Holy Week studies and celebrations. I'm very excited. And my parents are coming in this weekend, which means this week will be even more of a flurry of preparation. Sadly, this will be the first year my son has requested not to have an Easter basket awaiting him on Easter morning, but I'm dealing (more for me, perhaps? LOL!) On a happier note, though, we have already played "Easter Bunny" to our neighbors and priests, delivering Easter flowers and candy, and then this week we're going to make panorama Easter eggs with the girls I babysit and a couple of my son's buddies. There are a whole host of activities to participate in at church, too. It's going to be a wonderful celebration! I wish all of you the same!
Hugs -
Nini
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(") (")*
Farmgirl Sister #1974
God gave us two hands... one to help ourselves, and one to help others!
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FieldsofThyme
Farmgirl Guide & Schoolmarm / Chapter Leader
4928 Posts
USA
4928 Posts |
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LadyInRed
True Blue Farmgirl
6740 Posts
PeggyAnn
Vancouver
WA
USA
6740 Posts |
Posted - Apr 02 2012 : 09:07:29 AM
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Kristina...Hannah Whitall Smith is one of my all time favorite early Christian Women
Writers. If you enjoy "God Is Enough", don't stop there check out some of her other
great books. I also read her biography...and she was a real gutsy Christian Woman who
did NOT let Christian men itimadate her or push her around. God was her first true love and
Supreme authority and all other men took a back-seat to God. I loved her for that because
I have seen the male superiority crush women in Legalistic Churches and I like Hannah
fought for years for women who have a Strong Relationship with Christ to be taken seriously
by their male counter-parts in Church. God was successful through me...in that endeavor
and though I highly respect Christian Men...I detest those who think women have no place
in service in The Church or outside The Church. Anyway...enjoy her and appreciate her for
The Godly Woman She Was.
blessings,
peggy
Farmgirl #1326
http://ladyinredsite.blogspot.com
"Leave Your Cares Behind...Join Us On The Porch"
"I'm only as strong as the caffeine I drink, the hair-spray I use and the Girlfriends that I have."
When I was a lonely wallflower, Jesus asked me to dance. Then he asked me to be His! |
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Madelena
True Blue Farmgirl
1919 Posts
Mary
Central
TX
USA
1919 Posts |
Posted - Apr 02 2012 : 09:15:23 AM
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Amen to that .. LOTS OF US !
Maybe we could share ideas for reading lists sometime?
FG 3153
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Ninibini
True Blue Farmgirl
7577 Posts
Nini
Pennsylvania
USA
7577 Posts |
Posted - Apr 02 2012 : 10:44:23 AM
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Peggy - True, but I think what your describing really does depend upon how one defines "legalistic" and "church," though, don't you? There are a lot of self-proclaimed "churches" that do perpetuate the debasing of women - absolutely! - but at their heart, are they truly churches of Jesus Christ Himself? I have been to many, many churches in many different Christian faith walks and there have never seen a truly Godly church that holds women down. I've seen cults that do so. I've seen other religions do that. But where the Holy Spirit truly moves and resides in the heart of its members, I have seen none of that. Instead I have seen nothing but the honoring and embracing of both men and women who are free to be who they are in Christ. I just think maybe we confuse cults with churches that walk in the true faith, you know?
False churches, false faiths, erroneous teachings and practices truly do hurt the family of God - the Body of Christ - in the most profound ways. Wouldn't it be so much better if Christians loved as Christ Himself loves? Imagine what an amazing world this would be if we truly stood no longer divided but rather united.... if we started living the Word and Will of God, allowing the Holy Spirit to guide us to enlightenment. Christ wants unity in His body, not dissension. As we read in Matthew 12:25, "Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, 'Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.'"
I have always been extremely uncomfortable when we start having and perpetuating negative feelings and attitudes toward men, and vice versa. How can that be healthy? God made Eve from Adam's rib so that they would truly be part of each other and helpmeets in life. I believe women are strong, vital and should not be considered lesser human beings, of course! They should be cherished and honored! But so also men! We all have the breath of God, after all! We really can tear apart the body of Christ when we see each other as less or fail to honor the dignity which God imparts upon us. Our particular Church is very clear about this and supports that way of thinking. We are free to be who God created us to be without societal constraints and limitations and lies concerning women, which we all encounter every day on many, many levels in the secular world. (It's hard being a girl sometimes, isn't it?) Men and women both are honored for our contribution, in whatever capacity that may be; and there are many roles for men and women to fill within the Church structure. But for a Catholic, the woman is not allowed to be a Priest. I realize that can be a stumbling block for some Christians. I don't think that's particularly legalistic, to be honest - it's tradition handed down both from the Bible, the history of God's people, and the Father's of the Church. Women still have vital roles to play, and our voices are heard. It doesn't bother me one bit, personally. I feel fulfilled and embraced as both a woman and Child of God. But that's me. For those who are bothered by this practice, there are other church options. I have to say, though, the Catholic Church is not the only church who abides by this practice.
What I think it boils down to is, if men do not behave rightly toward women, or vice versa, it is an error on the part of wisdom and of the heart, perhaps out of a true "God-less-ness," if you will. Where I have experienced the debasement of men and women is in the faults, failings and shortcomings of man and woman, but not in the churches, the true Body of Christ.
Hugs and love,
Nini
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(") (")*
Farmgirl Sister #1974
God gave us two hands... one to help ourselves, and one to help others!
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Edited by - Ninibini on Apr 02 2012 10:44:54 AM |
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LadyInRed
True Blue Farmgirl
6740 Posts
PeggyAnn
Vancouver
WA
USA
6740 Posts |
Posted - Apr 02 2012 : 2:34:28 PM
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Nini...right on dear sister, I totally agree with everything you said...and please don't think I
was trying to debase men. There are many men (God fearing men) who believe women have no place
in the services of the Church other than to teach small children. I believe they get their thinking
from The Apostle Paul. Where he says women should remain silent in Church and if they have any
questions they should ask their husbands at home. They take one comment out of context and use it
as their policy for women's roll in The Church. Paul had just been dealing with two contincious women
who were causing problems during the services. But God has always used women through-out the
Scriptures in very significant ways. They were Judges, Prophetesses,Teachers, and even Deaconesses in the
early Church. And Galatians 3:28 states "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female for you are all one in Christ Jesus." I agree with you that the Church does not promote women as Priests or Pastors but there are many many rolls of service within the Church and without for women to have
leading rolls of service. I believe Hannah Whitehall Smith was a leading activist of her time trying to
show legalistic Pastors that they needed to allow the Holy Spirit more dictate in their services and hearts as Jesus Christ was the great liberator of women when He walked this earth.
blessings,
Peggy
Farmgirl #1326
http://ladyinredsite.blogspot.com
"Leave Your Cares Behind...Join Us On The Porch"
"I'm only as strong as the caffeine I drink, the hair-spray I use and the Girlfriends that I have."
When I was a lonely wallflower, Jesus asked me to dance. Then he asked me to be His! |
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Ninibini
True Blue Farmgirl
7577 Posts
Nini
Pennsylvania
USA
7577 Posts |
Posted - Apr 02 2012 : 5:46:51 PM
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Oooooh! I think I misunderstood! I see what you are saying, Peggy. I was just concerned because terms like "legalistic churches" and "male superiority crushing women," make me a little uneasy. Especially as a Catholic, because our church is constantly misunderstood as being legalistic and many times accused of being misogynistic. (Far from it!) But now that I know what you are referring to, I get it. I apologize. Please forgive me - I simply misunderstood. :)
I don't know where the Bible directly says that Paul was dealing with contentious women in his I Corinthians 13 & 14 dissertations (maybe that's a traditional teaching rather than a Biblical specific?), but I do know that he does directly speak to women who interrupt the service with their comments and questions, so I do get what you're saying. I believe that is was what Paul was referring to when he said in 1 Corinthians 14:35 that, "If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." I do see what you meant by people taking Biblical texts out of context!
And you are spot on about women in the Bible being used in ministry - Phoebe and Priscilla come immediately to mind. In modern times, we have/have had amazing women in the universal church, Mother Theresa, for example... Or Kay Arthur, or Sheila Walsh or Mother Angelica... For that matter we can include faithful, God-loving women like Michelle Duggar, too. I don't think anyone can question their noble positions or missions in the universal church - oh, how God is using them! He uses us all in amazing, miraculous ways - from the least to the greatest. It's awesome!
I would, however, really like to hear your take on 1 Timothy 2, though, where Paul says in vs. 11 - 15, "11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety." I have always believed that his words "women will be saved by childbearing...." is a reference to our Blessed Mother's "yes" to God's call to become the Mother of His Son. Being the "New Eve," if you will, she repaired for women what Eve had undone, and that through Christ's salvation, we all are saved. But I also thought that this was a pretty clear statement about a woman's position as being under the authority of a man - not in an "under the thumb" kind of way, but rather in such a way as the man is the head and the woman is the heart, and that our gifts work together to glorify God. Again, I know I'm not saying it right, but I hope you get the gist. I'd be really, really interested to hear your thoughts on this, and how it relates to women's roles in the home and in church. There are so many scriptural references that talk about the necessity of our submission to our husbands, to male leaders in the church (but not necessarily to ALL men) and to have our heads "covered" in church (perhaps not so much a physical covering as a spiritual covering protecting our minds and hearts in Christ?). You're right, though, Jesus really did elevate women in both life and in the church. (I think that's something that always drew me to Pope John Paul II, too, even when I was not a Catholic.) I have read so much on the subject, and I admit, it can be a bit daunting, so I really would like to hear your thoughts about it. I really respect your opinion! :)
Thank you!
Hugs -
Nini
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(") (")*
Farmgirl Sister #1974
God gave us two hands... one to help ourselves, and one to help others!
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Cherime
True Blue Farmgirl
1222 Posts
Cherime
Wasilla
Alaska
USA
1222 Posts |
Posted - Apr 03 2012 : 09:23:09 AM
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To add another take to this discussion, I have been taking Torah classes for more than 3 years now and some of the actual things in Genesis regarding women are pretty amazing. God made women to be a helpmate (meaning partner) for man AND if necessary an adversary to take man to task when he strayed from God's plan for his life. Women are also said to carry the shekinah glory of God. Also, in Hebrew a man who is nasty to the rest of the world can have favor with God so long as he treats his wife with love and respect. God was not happy with those who turned their wives out simply to get a newer model. The passage in Romans7: 1-3 is often used by some to attempt to make judgments regarding marriage and how a woman could not leave a marriage but that particular passage is being used by Paul as an example of how we are to die to the world (sin) so that Jesus can then marry us and we are all the bride of Christ by that death.
Man is to be the head of the house not the tyrant. Also, Paul was writing in a time in which men had abused the law and created traditions that circumvented what God really wanted them to be doing. Charity, kindness, love for one another was what God had in mind. The Proverbs 31: 10-31 woman was not browbeaten, she was mistress of her household; she bought and sold property. The last verse has always said it all for me: "Give her the fruit of her hands, and let her works praise her in the gates".
CMF |
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smiley
True Blue Farmgirl
650 Posts
lea
pea ridge
arkansas
USA
650 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2012 : 05:18:17 AM
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| It makes sense doesnt it? In a business, home,etc. only one can be the final authority or you get nothing done,go nowhere.Someone takes charge and leads and the others follow. They have input and a good leader values and listens to that input. Our denomination allows women to preach. There has been once or twice God laid a sermon on my heart and I was allowed to give it.I was not usurping authority over men I was a voice delivering a message to all who would receive it. My husband is the head of our home. If we disagree and have each stated our point and still differ, his way wins. He has changed things when he thought I was right however. You know the joke-the husband is the head but the wife is the neck that changes it whatever dirrection she wants lol. Seriously though I grew up in a different denomination that forbid women to speak in church. I questioned this and was told by the pastor (current denomination) when Jesus resurrected, the first person he appeared to and told "go tell" the rest He was alive was a woman.Go tell is preaching. Sharing the good news. He could have picked a man. Nini about the 1st Cor. verse- wasnt the tradition of the time for the women to be on the balcony seperated from the men? If so I can see where that would come from.Loving this discussion. Need to run or will be late for work.Enjoy your visit with your parents Nini. Megan you are so right.Easter makes us "get it" Remembering it ' personal '. IF it were only one person He still whould have died for just one. How special does that love make you feel sisters? |
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Cherime
True Blue Farmgirl
1222 Posts
Cherime
Wasilla
Alaska
USA
1222 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2012 : 11:08:28 AM
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Soooo very loved and special. God is good all the time and Jesus is my knight in shining armor.
Lea, thats about the way I see it. My late DH and I discussed things and he listened to my view and usually we met in the middle.
CMF |
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LadyInRed
True Blue Farmgirl
6740 Posts
PeggyAnn
Vancouver
WA
USA
6740 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2012 : 5:14:36 PM
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Wow Nini...I think I am glad that I couldn't hop on here yesterday and give answer to your questions because it gave others opportunity to give voice to the question too.
I have my personal beliefs of why Paul wrote the various statements about women remaining silent. #1 Paul
was a bachelor! #2 He didn't walk with Christ, The 12 Apostles and the band of women that went with
them providing food and monetary care etc. (That did not make Paul a lesser Apostle...The Lord himself
taught Paul in the deserts of Arabia for 3 years...in the early part of Galations). I believe it says God taught Paul everything he wanted him to know about his son. Well, since God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit are one in the same (The Trinity/ 3 in one) We can safely say He was taught by Jesus all he needed to know to be
a hand-selected Apostle of Jesus Christ. We also know that Paul did have high regards for various women in
the early church because he calls them out by name in various greetings to the different churches.
So, all of that to say...that I still think Paul's own singleness comes across in some of his teachings.
He had no experience in loving a wife like Christ loves the Church. Enough to die for her. When a Christian man and woman join together they are one in Christ. A unit. My husband is a retired Pastor...and I am a Re-tired Pastor's wife...my husband never has Lorded anything over me...being the Head of Household. He has always treated me like an equal in Christ. We always discuss everything together...and make our descesions together. If we come to an impass (which I don't ever remember that happening) but then I would step back and let him make the final descision. He thus would be responsible to God if he makes the right or wrong descision.
I also believe that Church Leaders are head over the body of Christ and thus the women too...if they are making spiritual decisions for the entire body. But let me give you an example of what happened to me one time...and how my husband and the rest of the Leaders handled it. I was at work one day and my husband called to see if I was going to Teach another Women's Class at Church the next quarter and I said, "No, I don't think so...go ahead and tell them that I won't be teaching this quarter." Well, three days later while I was at work, God clearly spoke to my heart...telling me that He did want me to teach a class and it should be this, this and this." The Holy Spirit so mapped it out in my heart, soul and mind....that there was no doubt that I was suppose to teach this particular Women's class. So, I called my husband and told him and he said, "Well, I think it's too late but I am going into a Leaders Meeting so I will bring it up."
After, the meeting he called me back and said, "Honey the Leaders said, that it was too late to have you sign up to teach that class." I said, "Well, honey...all I can tell you is that I wasn't planning on Teaching but God laid on my heart that he wanted me to teach and exactly what he wanted me to teach in the class...so, if you men decide I am not going to teach...it is on your heads, not mine...so, if you can all live with that...I guess, I will have to too." A half an hour later my husband calls me back and says, "OK, they decided you are teaching this class...they weren't willing to go against what God told you." That is an example of how beautifully it can work...when everyone is more concerned with listening to God, than self.
But...I would be lying to say, that it has always worked out like that. But Sister...that is how it should work. ~ I have been in Churches that The Holy Spirit couldn't move in that Church if he wanted to...because The Leaders had everything orchestrated so tightly down to the minutest second(that there was barely room for the worshipers to breathe)let alone The Holy Spirit to move within that Service.
Anyway...as A Christian Women's Leader myself...I most identify with Paul in the New Testament (I know funny huh?)...but I don't think he always knew how to give women the Freedom that Christ intended and purposed them to have.
I think the way he handled the two women who were interupting the Church Service...was the only thing he could do under those circumstances...but that didn't mean women were never to speak in Church from that time forward. I don't believe that. Not when Christ so honored and esteemed women. And like Cherime shared,
Our Risen Lord revealed himself first to a woman after his resurrection from the tomb. Why? I think he was saying something loud and clear to the men, don't you?
I think we are all agreeing here...God's will is the important thing and we are to be gentle and loving vessels for The King of Kings. Allowing Him to decide...how we will be used of Him. Jars of Clay holding The Message..."The Good News" of Jesus Christ and we are to
allow Him to love others through us and point them to God. Amen?
blessings and love,
peggy
Farmgirl #1326
http://ladyinredsite.blogspot.com
"Leave Your Cares Behind...Join Us On The Porch"
"I'm only as strong as the caffeine I drink, the hair-spray I use and the Girlfriends that I have."
When I was a lonely wallflower, Jesus asked me to dance. Then he asked me to be His! |
Edited by - LadyInRed on Apr 04 2012 5:25:34 PM |
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Ninibini
True Blue Farmgirl
7577 Posts
Nini
Pennsylvania
USA
7577 Posts |
Posted - Apr 04 2012 : 10:45:35 PM
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Thank you girls! This really is turning out to be a great discussion!!! I love this! The floor is open – please keep on contributing your thoughts on this subject. I love when we share our knowledge like this. It really helps us gain a fuller, more meaningful picture of our faith! Thank you! You all ROCK!
I hear what you’re saying, Peggy, I do. And I kind of agree with you about this, yet my understanding is a little bit different than yours, especially concerning the Apostle Paul. But first, let me share with you that Paul is my favorite apostle! Like you, I feel very close to him. I don’t find it funny that you feel that way at all! I think it’s awesome! :)
I do agree with you whole-heartedly that women are called to serve and have vocations within the church, and that this is evidenced throughout Scripture. But I think a lot of Scripture is very clear on a woman’s position of teaching in church itself and about a woman not having authority over men, so I’m still not exactly clear about the whole women submitting to men thing. To be honest, I think my husband would fall apart without me! ;) And vice versa, of course. We really are helpmeets and “one flesh” in every sense of the words. I do submit to him, but it’s usually once he comes around to agreeing with my way of thinking! ;)
My understanding of this passage, and others like it, is a little different, I guess. To me, it’s not so much that Paul or the other apostles had intent to hold women back in church or have a lesser view of women or anything. It’s more that that Jesus Himself did not designate any women to be one of his Apostles. He did have women disciples, but there is a big difference between the two. A disciple is defined as a person who embraces, adheres to and spreads the teachings of another person; whereas an apostle is defined more in terms of authority. An apostle can be a disciple, but a disciple is not an apostle. Jesus had many women disciples who served in many ways, but He only assigned twelve apostles, and they were all distinctly men. And when Judas died, they were very careful to replace him as soon as possible. And he was replaced by another man, not a women. But my understanding has always been that it is because Jesus set this precedent when appointing the original twelve, not because the apostles were holding women back or down.
As simple as that is, it just seems to me to be a better explanation as to why Paul and the other Apostles, although honoring women’s role in the church, would specify that women should not have authority over men in the church or men at home, but rather submit to the male authority. I don’t believe Paul was saying a woman was “lesser” than or should be subservient to a man (although it really does almost seem that way sometimes, doesn't it?), because in his letter to the Corinthians he talks about men and women being called (I Cor. 1); how an unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife (I Cor. 7:14); he recognizes that all believers receive spiritual gifts and that all are part of the Body of Christ in an Order instilled by God (1 Cor. 12). He discusses how all are to prophesy in church (1 Cor. 13). And all of us are familiar with his letter to the Ephesians where he says in vs. 5:31, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” So my take on this is that he respected women and understood how important men and women are to each other as well as to the church. To me it seems more likely that his views concerning women submitting to men in church are Apostolic in nature. Women were/are just as important and necessary to men – integral parts of the Body of Christ. But because Jesus set the tone, if you will, for Church leadership, Paul and the Apostles followed suit, which is why they teach that women are not allowed to teach or have authority OVER men.
And please bear with me a little bit, because I have a completely different understanding about Paul’s “unmarried” status, okay? First of all, Paul was a Pharisee. Pharisees, although not “required” to marry, per se, they were strongly urged to be married – “expected” to be married, actually. As faithful Jews who adhered to the Torah, they would have considered a man to be incomplete until he was married with children. Marriage and procreation were set forth by God in the beginning, in Genesis. It would’ve been a tenet of their faith to do so. I don’t think it would’ve even been a question that marriage was a “must” to be a Pharisee.
It is my further understanding that many of the Church Fathers (but not all) believed and even specifically stated that Paul was married. Some believed that he was actually a widower at the time of his conversion, which is why he referred to himself as “unmarried.” This would’ve been in line with the Greek word he used to describe his unmarried state – agamos. Soas not to have to type a long dissertation on this Greek term, I had tried to find a good explanation of the use of this word for you online. This one, I thought, in particular, was fantastic: http://www.dennyburk.com/was-the-apostle-paul-married/
As an aside, as I mentioned earlier, I have been studying the Church Fathers recently. I’m no expert – trust me. But they are fascinating. Their insights are fascinating. Their lives are fascinating. Their commitment to their faith unto death is beyond words. To think how many of these men studied directly under the Apostles themselves, or were men who studied under that second generation… Their wisdom, understanding and knowledge – oh! I just love them! If any of you have not yet been able to read the Church Fathers, I highly recommend you do so!
So, I guess this is just more food for all of us to chew on. I guess we’ll never know exactly the entire explanation of Paul’s comments, but I think you are so right: we really do all agree that women have a very important role in the church, and have made some of the greatest contributions to the faith. When I think of women in the Catholic Church alone, like St. Theresa of Avila, St. Catherine, and St. Therese of Liseux, and how the Church have pronounced them Doctors of the Catholic Church – that says something about what both God and men in the Church think of women! And then you’ve got women like I mentioned before, Mother Theresa, for example, who have truly set the bar for women in service to God and His people – she is an inspiration to anyone of any Christian walk! And Pope John Paul II elevated the dignity and vocation of women in the Church to an entirely new level. You think about Mary, the Mother of Jesus; Mary Magdeleine; Priscilla, Phoebe, Abigail, Deborah, Ruth, Esther (two of my personal favorites, by the way!)… all of the courageous women in the Bible, and how they were used by God for the good of all His people. Yeah, we matter! God has purpose for each of us exactly as we are. We all have amazing gifts and talents and as part of His Body, I tend to believe more often then not, our roles are closest to His heart. :) And I can tell you for SURE you all are held close in mine! Love ya, sisters!
Hugs -
Nini
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Farmgirl Sister #1974
God gave us two hands... one to help ourselves, and one to help others!
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LadyInRed
True Blue Farmgirl
6740 Posts
PeggyAnn
Vancouver
WA
USA
6740 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2012 : 12:32:51 AM
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Nini...loved everything you shared also! This is a good discussion. I will go to your recommended web-site
here in a moment...because I am so fascinated that you believe Paul had been married. I have never heard
that in any of the commentaries I have studied on the New Testament....but though I am a Teacher of The Word...I always remain teachable. So, I shall check this out...thank you! ~ I love Deborah...I think I most relate to her in the Old Testament. I still hold Paul in highest esteem...but do you ever remember any of the other Apostles teaching women to remain silent...because I don't. Anyway, I'm off to check out your recommended web-site...and like you I hope others will pop on and share too. And I too Love each and everyone of my Sisters on here. And Nini...I always love your insights and knowledge and heart for God and his people.
OK...Nini I went on and read what Denny Burke (who I am totally unfamiliar with until now) had to say about Paul...and I will be
the first person to admit I am not a Greek Scholar...so, I can't disagree or agree with his Greek (but my husband is a Greek Teacher, so, I will have him look at it tomorrow). I found the arguement that Paul must have been married at one time because he was a Pharisee to be a huge generalization...not unlike saying all Christian Men must have been once married because The Christian Church promotes Marriage.
But...I am still going to research this further...and talk to my husband and get his take on these seven points. Thanks for peeking my curiousity. 
blessings,
peggy
Farmgirl #1326
http://ladyinredsite.blogspot.com
"Leave Your Cares Behind...Join Us On The Porch"
"I'm only as strong as the caffeine I drink, the hair-spray I use and the Girlfriends that I have."
When I was a lonely wallflower, Jesus asked me to dance. Then he asked me to be His! |
Edited by - LadyInRed on Apr 05 2012 12:45:52 AM |
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Gathered Up: Christian farmgirls? |
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Christian farmgirls?
