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Barnyard Buddies:  LGD pup(s) killed a chicken  |
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chickabella
True Blue Farmgirl
177 Posts
D. A.
Austin... ish,
Texas
177 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 26 2008 : 8:30:48 PM
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I realize that there will be losses when initially training livestock guardian pups, but it was still so sad to see that one of them (not sure which pup, but I have my suspicions) killed one of the chickens, and slobbered almost unto death another. The chickens must have flew into the pup's kennel. I'll miss my sweet lil' Hausfrau. I'm hoping that Cinnamon is just in shock, and will recover come morning. Her wings and legs look fine, but I don't know if there was any internal damage.
D*mn, this hurts. *sigh*
 Farm blog: http://farmnatters.blogspot.com
Tips blog: http://allingoodhealth.blogspot.com
Heart of Texas Farmgirls Chapter: www.maryjanesfarm.org/HenHouseSnitz/default.asp?CAT_ID=46 |
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chickabella
True Blue Farmgirl
177 Posts
D. A.
Austin... ish,
Texas
177 Posts |
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Bear5
True Blue Farmgirl
13055 Posts
Louisiana/Texas
USA
13055 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2008 : 8:56:55 PM
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D.A.
Sorry to hear that news. Hope you are feeling better.
Marly |
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shepherdgirl
True Blue Farmgirl
1008 Posts
Tracy
California
USA
1008 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2008 : 9:08:51 PM
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Oh, so sorry you lost your birdy. It can be tough training LGD's. we . When he was a pup, he would chase the sheep and bite the inside legs of one particular ewe. I actually had to move her into a seperate pen so he couldn't get near her. He was really upset about that, but he learned quickly what was acceptable and what WASN'T! When I finally put the ewe back in with him he didn't bother her at all.
My dog is 5yrs old now and we STILL have some issues to deal with now and then. The latest incident was him killing a Kitten. It just made me SICK!!! He was not raised with kittens -- I only had adult cats when he was growing up and they pretty much stayed away from him, so he didn't know what to make of the kittens-- I never imaginined he would actually KILL one though! He's usually so good with babies-- even the chicks and chickens!! I'm happy to report that he no longer sees the kittens as a threat though. As a matter of fact, he know comes to the house yard to check on them each day, but it took some convincing to make him understand that THEY were his to guard as well.
You don't say what kind of LGD's you have. What breed are they? (Mine is a Maremma-- WONDERFUL dog!!!!) Whatever they are, you MUST have patience when working with them. Hopefully they will understand that the chickens are NOT to play with! (which pups will do!) You might actually want to separate the two of them. Two LGD pups together can spell t-r-o-u-b-l-e, as you have, unfortunately, found out. That's why you usually see an older dog with a pup. The older dog learns from the master what is acceptable and what's not. They rely on the human for companionship and play from puppyhood -- which doesn't interfere with the pups guarding instincts. When the dog is mature and knows what's acceptable and what's not, that's when it's good to get another pup so the older dog can teach the younger. When you have two pups (or more) they will do what puppies do! Play with whatever comes their way! And sometimes not even pay attention to the livestock they are SUPPOSED to be guarding!! Please let us know how they are doing from time to time. I like to hear from other LGD owners and know I'm not alone in dealing with one!!!
Good luck to you Chickabella. Hugs~~ Tracy
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. ~~ George Carlin |
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chickabella
True Blue Farmgirl
177 Posts
D. A.
Austin... ish,
Texas
177 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2008 : 05:26:04 AM
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Hi Tracy & Marly:
Thanks for the condolences. Cinnamon made it through the night, which was a relief. Tough little girl!
Tracy, we're currently training Great Pyrenees. We got them both, litter-mates, through another farm. Our neighbor is also raising an LGD (GP as well) to raise as a poultry guarder, as they've done for years, but theirs is still a pup as well, so no grown mentors for any of our pups at this point :-(.
When you suggest to separate, would a divider in their main kennel be enough? Or should they be physically separated by several yards? Many thanks for whatever advice you can offer...
Farm blog: http://farmnatters.blogspot.com
Tips blog: http://allingoodhealth.blogspot.com
Heart of Texas Farmgirls Chapter: www.maryjanesfarm.org/HenHouseSnitz/default.asp?CAT_ID=46 |
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shepherdgirl
True Blue Farmgirl
1008 Posts
Tracy
California
USA
1008 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2008 : 6:59:51 PM
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Well, I'm glad you have such confidance in "MY" advice, but I am by NO MEANS an expert. A lot of "raising" these dogs is plain old common sense. The Maremma is a bit different than the Pyrs in personality and temperament, but in the end, it's all the same results we're aiming for. A SAFE dog that does it's job well. (A Maremma in the WRONG hands can be EXTREMELY DANGEROUS!! Though, I suppose ANY of the guardian breeds can be-- they are HUGE dogs!!! but YOU know that!)
You say the pups are in a Kennel. Why? (just curious) I was told by the breeder I got my dog from (and other breeders I'd contacted, as well as what I read in all my research) that the dogs should be put where they are to do their work from DAY ONE. In other words-- my dog went straight in with the sheep as soon as I got him home (at 1:00 am!! It was a loooong trip home). He's been with them ever since.
Keeping the pups from the animals they are meant to guard confuses them as to WHAT they are supposed to do be doing. Although, I don't think I would get a dog just to guard chickens-- but that's just ME. Chickens are quite a bit more fragile than a sheep or a goat. And pups WILL play with the animals they guard. I only had adult sheep when my dog arrived so he was able to get used to them before the babies started coming. One playful bite from the pup COULDN'T kill them! Chickens are a different story. (in fact, I think I might have lost a bird or two when he was young, but he guards them just as well as the other animals now)
What are your pups supposed to be guarding, and how old are they? If it IS chickens they are guarding, well, I'm the WRONG person to ask how to go about training them to do THAT. Truth be told, I haven't "Trained" my dog to do anything-- he already KNEW what he had to do (instinct-- and lessons form his Mama!! An older dog is the next best thing for training pups) I think one of the BIG mistakes that some people make when raising LGD's is to try and train them like a PET dog-- well, they are not PETS, they are WORKERS, there to do a job.
My dog, Eli, and I have a great relationship, one of mutual respect, but I do not treat him like our OTHER dogs (3 Chihuahuas and my husbands Lab). He has a mind of his own and the only time I interfere with HIS way of doing things is if it's a behavior I do NOT want him to repeat. I CORRECT him, I do not "train" him. So far, it's worked out well. We've had a few issues over the years, but they were easily dealt with. He's a FANTASTIC dog!! ~~Tracy
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. ~~ George Carlin |
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chickabella
True Blue Farmgirl
177 Posts
D. A.
Austin... ish,
Texas
177 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2008 : 7:44:34 PM
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Thanks for responding again, Tracy! You're right about the chickens being fragile. Many of our neighbors train their Great Pyrenees to guard poultry, and we're working with their techniques. For what it's worth, I've also checked what I'm doing with a local GP LGD trainer, and so far, so good. We have a setup like this:
One primary pen, divided into two areas. One side is the pup's "kennel" (an 8' x 20' area), the other side is where the geese and chickens hang out (much longer and wider). The dogs are always with the chickens and geese, although the birds are not always "up close and personal". I'll put the pups in the main poultry side, with supervision, at least once a day.
The two pups are 5 months old each. For Great Pyrenees, the guarding instincts kick in between 5 and 10 months of age. Pup #1 is Bandit. Her instinct has definitely kicked in. When the divider fence was shorter, she'd climb over and hang out with the poultry, with no problems. At night, she continues to sleep next to the dividing wire fence, and the geese cuddle up to her on the other side *grin*.
Pup #2 is Maggie, and her instincts are still developing. She's the one I suspect killed the chicken, as she tends to see them as interesting bouncy things that might be fun to chase. Bandit tries to correct Maggie for things like jumping up on the fence when I come to feed, but is too young to do it yet with certain authority.
The days of training after the chicken incident have gone well. Maggie seems to know that she and/or Bandit did something bad to the chicken, and is now responding with submission and calm whenever a bird approaches. Before, as mentioned previously, she was intensely curious.
Nope, no beatings or anything like that! I was upset, for sure, but I know better than to correct a dog after-the-fact. If you don't catch them in the act, later correction is just cruel and bewildering.
I'm continuing to train them in basic manners - "sit", "come", "drop it", no jumping up on humans, leash training, etc. - but they won't ever be house dogs. You're right about the instincts, they'll either kick in or not. I'm hoping Maggie is just a (relative to Bandit) late bloomer.
For fun, pic's of Bandit and Maggie, respectively:
 
 Farm blog: http://farmnatters.blogspot.com
Tips blog: http://allingoodhealth.blogspot.com
Heart of Texas Farmgirls Chapter: www.maryjanesfarm.org/HenHouseSnitz/default.asp?CAT_ID=46
Farmgirl Sisterhood Member #275 |
Edited by - chickabella on Jul 28 2008 7:46:35 PM |
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shepherdgirl
True Blue Farmgirl
1008 Posts
Tracy
California
USA
1008 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2008 : 9:09:02 PM
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Oh what BEAUTIES they are!! Love those masks! The Maremmas have no markings, but they come in several shades of white. Right now Eli is BROWN, he's so dirty, but tomarrow he will be all sparkly white again! (amazing how the dirt just falls off him!)
Sounds like you've got a good program going. No need to separate them, but, Maggie just might turn out to be one of those that would rather be lying at the foot of your bed rather than guarding animals. That's why I chose the Maremma breed instead (and after a YEARS worth of researching guardian breeds of ALL kinds). They are 100% loyal to the animals they are put to guard (though I'm sure there are exceptions even in THAT breed!) Unlike the Pyrs, they do NOT make good pets. Their instincts are EXTREMELY strong!!! A Maremma in the house could spell serious trouble in more ways than one!!
They have not been in the United States long-- less than 30yrs I think, and have only recently been gaining in popularity. I had to go all the way to Oregon to get him because there were NO breeders here in CA at the time (there are NOW though! 5yrs later). I have been considering a Pyr pup, with Eli to train her (yes, the next dog will be a HER. Eli is neutered and the HER will be spayed-- I have NO desire to raise gigantic pups and I would NEVER mix the breeds-- too unpredictable as to what temperament/personality you'll get)
Anyway, it sounds like you're doing a good job with your pups and you don't need my two cents thrown in. Although, some people should NEVER have these kind of dogs. I'm sure you've heard, or even known of a few. SCARY!!! Have fun with your beautiful pups. I know I'D like to hear updates!!! Hugs to you and the "girls" ~~~ Tracy
Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away. ~~ George Carlin |
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Barnyard Buddies: LGD pup(s) killed a chicken |
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LGD pup(s) killed a chicken
