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Family Matters:  Religion Question  |
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Utahfarmgirl
True Blue Farmgirl
1940 Posts
Portland
Oregon
USA
1940 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 27 2007 : 10:46:58 AM
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Betty, one of the things that I do is re-create my clients plan for this life, which includes the answer to why you're here and what you're supposed to be doing. If you want to have me do this for you, send me your phone number privately and I'll call you. No charge.
As for finding a place to worship (remember, "worship" means "welcome") the only thing to do is try out some that you're drawn to and find the one where you feel welcome. Your spirituality is your relationship with God. How you express it is religion. Religion was created (by people) to assist people, not God. It's purpose is to help us satisfy that need within us for our Creator.
Sometimes I wish I still had my church.
Anyway, good luck and holler if you need me.
love,
Patricia
Proud Farmgirl Sister #19
check out my etsy site http://ThePlayfulFarmgirl.etsy.com
Take me home, country roads |
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greyghost
True Blue Farmgirl
650 Posts
Lynn
Summerville
Georgia
USA
650 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2007 : 11:04:23 AM
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I was thinking the other day, as I walked through the woods, waaaay up high on the Pinhoti trail near me, that at times in my search to understand religion, and my place in this world, and God, that at times I feel lost. I know the term for someone who has no walk with God is "lost" and I do so understand that feeling now, to an extent.
Walking in the woods, with my big, fuzzy, afraid-of-everything dog Cookie (Patrica, you have talked to her before), is my best time to talk to God, really. I'm not really "lost" - I know I believe in God, I know that the very core of my beliefs is still intact. I'm just seeking, I suppose. Seeking answers, and truths, and knowing that whatever conclusions I come up with may be wrong, that I honestly may not know until I am dead.
Zora Neal Houston (sp?) once said "Two things everybody's got t' do for themselves: they have to go to God, and they have to find out about living for themselves."
So as I slowly gather information from this site, and others, and books (lots of books, what would my parents think of some of those titles???). I find the seeking interesting, and I am starting to feel closer to God just by seeking Him/Her - the constant asking for guidance, which I haven't really done so much before. I've been trying to leave no stone unturned, though you know, I could spend several lifetimes in my seeking and still not have heard/read/understood everything. I know this is a lifetime challenge, and that this road I have embarked upon isn't going to just end somewhere in some perfect religion that I can just sink into like I used to in my old churches, no familiarity and spelled-out holidays and traditions.
At any rate, it's interesting, and I appreciate your insight, Patricia. Blessings. |
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Utahfarmgirl
True Blue Farmgirl
1940 Posts
Portland
Oregon
USA
1940 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2007 : 11:10:57 AM
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Lynn, you've said it so beautifully! That's what life is, in my opinion, a walk to find our personal relationship with our Creator. (and you're right, sometimes it does take more than one lifetime). Thanks for sharing.
love,
Patricia
Proud Farmgirl Sister #19
check out my etsy site http://ThePlayfulFarmgirl.etsy.com
Take me home, country roads |
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Leezard
True Blue Farmgirl
950 Posts
Elizabeth
Novi
MI
USA
950 Posts |
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Utahfarmgirl
True Blue Farmgirl
1940 Posts
Portland
Oregon
USA
1940 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2007 : 11:15:05 AM
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Yes, Elizabeth, that's what I like about Methodism (although I don't pinhole myself into any religion)It welcomes all beiefs from Fundamental to New Age. All under one roof.
love,
Patricia
Proud Farmgirl Sister #19
check out my etsy site http://ThePlayfulFarmgirl.etsy.com
Take me home, country roads |
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Amie C.
True Blue Farmgirl
2099 Posts
Finger Lakes Region
NY
2099 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2007 : 11:35:29 AM
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Patricia, I was wondering where the Aramaic came in! I'm glad you posted more about that. I assume from your latest that the Aramaic you are talking about in the New Testament is the little bits that one of the gospel writers in particular (is it Matthew?) likes to quote and then translate for the Greek-speaking readers. (Note to the non-seminary geeks: The primary language of the New Testament is Koine Greek - the form of Greek that was commonly spoken in the Mediterranean world during the 1st century.)
Betty Jo, I was raised in the United Methodist church and I remember it fondly. But even within a denomination, there is so much difference between one individual church and another. I think to a certain extent it's more important to find the place where you feel comfotable with the people and the style of worship than to find the denomination where you agree entirely with every point of doctrine.
I'm reminded of a quote from Ansel Adams that I ran into at an exhibit this year. Adams liked the idea of allowing other photographers free access to develop his negatives and create new prints of their own. He compared a negative to a composer's score for a piece of music: musicians get to interpret the piece in their own way every time they play it, so why shouldn't photographers get to interpret each others negatives to create their own artwork? I think you could say the same thing about the doctrines of a faith. We all have to interpret them in our practice. Every congregation and every individual comes up with a slightly different rendition, even when we are working from the same set of principles. |
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Utahfarmgirl
True Blue Farmgirl
1940 Posts
Portland
Oregon
USA
1940 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2007 : 12:34:31 PM
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Amie, the scriptures of the New Testament were not written in Greek originally. They were written in Aramaic, which is agreed by scholars and theologians to be the language spoken by the Jews at that time.
Aramaic, Hebrew and Arabic are sister languages; that is, they are written the same but pronounced differently. It's like speaking English with a Southern or Western accent, idioms, etc.
The Jews hated the Greeks. Rabbis were known to say they would rather their people eat pork than speak the language of the Greeks. so why would they write their sacred scriptures in Greek?
If you were going to write what we're discussing today, you wouldn't write it in Greek, French or Chinese. You would write in English. So too the authors of the new Testament wrote in their own language, Aramaic.
The oldest Scriptures are the Pesh**ta, which means straight, simple, siincere and true. The Scriptures of the Church of the East (Christian) from the inception of Christianity to the present day, are in Aramaic and have never been tampered with or revised a attested by the Patriarchs of the church of the East. The Biblical manuscripts were carefully and zealously handed down from one generation to the other and kept in the massive stone walls of the ancient churches and in caves, which was how the Hebrews stored their precious writings.
I've studied these Scriptures for over 30 years and can steer you to info on them if you wish.
I love your story about Ansel Adams. I never could understand why artists (from painters to chefs) jealously guard their work from other artists or the general public. What are they afraid of?
love,
Patricia
Proud Farmgirl Sister #19
check out my etsy site http://ThePlayfulFarmgirl.etsy.com
Take me home, country roads |
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Amie C.
True Blue Farmgirl
2099 Posts
Finger Lakes Region
NY
2099 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2007 : 08:35:43 AM
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Patricia, I've never heard of these Aramaic scriptures. As far as I know, the oldest manuscripts of the New Testament are in Greek. That's certainly the language my husband studied in seminary. Are these the standard books, or extra-canonicals? If you can, please post or send me an email with some sources!
You mentioned chefs and that reminds me of something funny (although it was embarrassing at the time!) that happened to me at a restaurant. I ordered a dish that was described as being Ethiopian in origin and it was very good. I had never tasted anything like it, and I asked the waitress what kind of spices are used in Ethiopian cooking. I was thinking that different restaurants use different names for their dishes, and knowing the ingredients would help me find similar things in my home city. The waitress went to the back and returned with this very solemn look on her face. "The chef says he does not reveal his recipes," she told me. And everyone at the table looked away discreetly, as though I had committed some horrible faux pas. Jeez, you would think I had a right to know what I was putting into my body! In retrospect, it seems funnier and funnier. This wasn't a high end place at all, it was a family style restaurant in a very small town. I wonder what competitors that chef thought were spying on him? |
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Utahfarmgirl
True Blue Farmgirl
1940 Posts
Portland
Oregon
USA
1940 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2007 : 12:05:38 PM
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Amie, most Western people have never heard of the Aramaic Scriptures. As I said above, they were hidden in the old ways by Eastern Christians to preserve and protect them. And there hasn't been much interaction between the Middle East and the West until the past few years when it was certainly not about enlightenment or literary preservations.
Also, many ancient tests were lost during WWI. Printed copies of them, made by American missionaries under the help and guidance of competent native scholars, are available. A number of texts are in various libraries. They are known as the Pesh**ta, which means straight, true, sincere and original.
I belong to an organization which attempts to disseminate these texts in the West. It's a shame that Western Christians cannot read the Bible the way it was originally meant. Some of it is quite different. One has to also study the idioms (some of which have become dogmas in certain religions), the 40,000 translation errors, the customs and psychology of the people, etc. This is the course I teach. It has been my ministry for over 30 years. The English translation of the Bible from the original Aramaic and Hebrew was done by Dr. George Lamsa and the result is the Lamsa Bible. If you want info let me know. I can send you the 10 or so pages from the Introduction in which Dr. Lamsa goes into all this in great detail
As for that chef, perfect example of what I was talking about. What was he afraid of? I love your sense of humor about it.
love,
Patricia
Proud Farmgirl Sister #19
check out my etsy site http://ThePlayfulFarmgirl.etsy.com
Take me home, country roads |
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emsmommy5
True Blue Farmgirl
1547 Posts
Angie
Buckley
WA
USA
1547 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2007 : 2:11:59 PM
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Patricia
I have been reading your comments with great interest. I would love it if you could send me some information on the work you are doing and some references to get a hold of.
Thanks
Firefighter Stairclimb March 2nd- Help me help others by donating on my fundraising page. https://www.active.com/donate/17thscottstairclimb/angieriggsby |
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Amie C.
True Blue Farmgirl
2099 Posts
Finger Lakes Region
NY
2099 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2007 : 4:04:46 PM
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| Thanks, Patricia. I'll look into the Lamsa Bible. Sounds like the scriptures most of us use would be different books entirely from these, not translations made around the same time. I'm suprised that I've never heard mention of them, even in discussions of the process by which the New Testament canon was developed. That was going on between the second and fourth centuries, when east and west were not nearly so divided. If you've been studying them for 30 years, seems like word would have gotten out by now! I guess they've never found an academic champion, like Elaine Pagels with the Gnostic Gospels. |
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Utahfarmgirl
True Blue Farmgirl
1940 Posts
Portland
Oregon
USA
1940 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2007 : 4:32:44 PM
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So true, Amie. Dr. Lamsa lectured and gave classes as much as he could in this country from the 30s until he died in the early 60s, but these ideas were unpopular with the clergy, who had devoted their lives to the King James, etc. I'll be interested in hearing your thoughts on the Lamsa Bible. You can google the foundation (Noohra-meaning light), currently headed by my teacher, Dr. Rocco Errico, to get more information. Let me know if I can help.
Dr. Pagels is a champion of alternative scriptures. I almost got to hear a lecture she gave in Salt Lake City last year (he son goes to college there) but got sick. With Religion, like everything else, things are political. the choices of which books to include in the canon was political, too. Can't have books by women, and oh, can't have ones that don't promote our agenda. Sad, because people hunger for contact with their creator.
Off my soap box. Pleaee let me know what you think.
check out my etsy site http://ThePlayfulFarmgirl.etsy.com
Take me home, country roads |
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Amie C.
True Blue Farmgirl
2099 Posts
Finger Lakes Region
NY
2099 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2007 : 08:29:31 AM
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Well, Patricia and anyone else who's still bothering with this thread, I've been checking out the info available on Google about the Lamsa Bible. My husband is sick, so it was a somewhat sleepless night for both of us.
I have to say, I'm not really finding any compelling historical or archaeological evidence to convince me that the New Testament was originally written in Aramaic. Seems that most scholars are of the opinion that the Syriac Pesh**ta was a translation from the earlier Greek originals made for the use of the Syrian churches at some point between the 2nd and 5th centuries. Speaking as a non-expert, that seems to make sense to me logically. After all, much of the New Testament (both in the Pesh**ta and in the western canon) is made up of letters, such as the letters of Paul to the Romans or the Thessalonians. Why would you write a letter to non-Aramaic speaking people in Aramaic? Patricia, you made the point that the Jews hated the Gentiles and would have avoided speaking their language. I'm sure there were many purists who felt that way in Palestine. But Greek was the common language of international trade and Jews did participate in trade with other peoples around the Mediterranean.
Speaking theologically, the conflict between Jews and Gentiles within the Christian movement is a major issue throughout the NT. The big issue being that many Christians believed a Gentile convert had to become Jewish in order to be a real Christian, by being circumcised and by following Jewish kosher laws. Paul argued against the "Judaizers" (most obviously in the letter to the Galatians), stressing that the coming of Christ had done away with the old distinctions between Jew and Gentile, male and female, free and slave. Within the first generation of Christianity, it had become a religion of the world not just a sect of Judaism. In this cosmopolitan atmosphere, it does seem to make sense that the gospels and other documents of the NT would be written in the language that reached the most people. Besides which, in the case of the gospel texts, it's unclear whether they were written by the disciples themselves whose names they bear, or by the followers of those disciples in order to preserve the gospel message as it had been preached to them. And the Gospel of Luke was almost certainly written by a Gentile who may not have even spoken Aramaic.
The Noorha Foundation seems to put a lot of emphasis on rectifying the mistakes of the old King James translation, but then all of the major 20th century biblical translations are more accurate than the KJV. Those poor scholars back in 1611 only had access to a few ancient sources and they weren't as accurate as the ones that have come to light more recently. I think I am more inclined to put my trust in a translation like the New International Version or the New Revised Standard because they were done by teams of scholars taking into account multiple sets of ancient sources. One man working alone from one source has no one to catch him in a slip or stop him from adding a bit of his own bias. Not that the committee approach is always the best either. I'm not a big fan of the Jesus Seminar.
So at this point my feeling is that the Pesh**ta is great for the Church of the East, but not all that significant for me. But I will be going over the texts I've got on the formation of the biblical canon. I've been doing some reading tonight in Bruce Metzger's "Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance." The era of the early church councils is just fascinating. I took a course as an undergraduate on Eastern Orthodoxy, but I haven't thought about it much lately. I'm planning to look further into the Church of the East and it's cousins. With all those schisms, it's hard to tell who's related to who anymore (theologically speaking). Eastern Christianity is indeed a strange and beautiful world. |
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Utahfarmgirl
True Blue Farmgirl
1940 Posts
Portland
Oregon
USA
1940 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2007 : 10:30:42 AM
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Amie, we could, like folks have been doing for the past few hundred years, talk about this forever. I appreciate your points. At this point, I think we must agree to disagree. In the long run, whatever gives you inspiration, brings you closer to God, and has meaning for you, is fine with me. I enjoyed our talk!
Have a great 2008!
love,
Patricia
Proud Farmgirl Sister #19
check out my etsy site http://ThePlayfulFarmgirl.etsy.com
Take me home, country roads |
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therusticcottage
True Blue Farmgirl
4439 Posts
Kay
Vancouver
WA
USA
4439 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2007 : 6:43:35 PM
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I have read this whole thread and find it totally fascinating. Both of you have definitely studied very deeply into the different translations of the scriptures. For me, I'm not really as concerned about what language they were translated from, but what God's word is saying to me personally. Maybe I should be concerned about translation?? But if I spent all my time worrying about the translation, then I would not have any time to spend studying or in worship and prayer. My grandson and I have had many discussions about Biblical translations. For only being 20 years old he is very knowledgable. He loves to study and dissect scripture. His take is that the new English Standard Version is as close as possible to a correct translation. Personally, I have stuck with my NIV because it is what I'm comfortable with. But I was raised in the Methodist church and learned scripture from the King James. I would definitely like to get he and Patricia together so they could discuss this topic. They'd both love it!
My Etsy Shop http://therusticcottage.etsy.com
The Rustic Cottage Blog http://therusticcottage.blogspot.com
Farmgirl Flair Etsy Team http://farmgirlsonetsy.blogspot.com
PROUD FARMGIRL SISTER #100
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Phils Ann
True Blue Farmgirl
1095 Posts
Ann
Parsonsburg
Maryland
USA
1095 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2007 : 08:23:02 AM
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I was reading the first chapter of Acts this morning and verse 19 just popped out to me... Judas has hung himself, and I quote, (New American Standard), "And it became known to all who were living in Jerusalem: so that in their own language that field was called Hakeldama, that is, Field of Blood." If it were written in Aramaic, this passage wouldn't make any sense.
There are many good translations out in our day, and the differences between them are so insignificant... if you read King James English with understanding, fine! Personally I like NIV and NAS, the NAS being my favorite. Thankfully, God is still all powerful, and is able to keep His Word in truth for us in even this age.
Ann
Sairy Hill Thicket
There is a Redeemer. |
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bboopster
True Blue Farmgirl
1140 Posts
Betty Jo
West Bend
Wisconsin
USA
1140 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2007 : 08:48:36 AM
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Elizabeth, I am going to start my first Nanny job on the 7th. I am 48 so I was a bit scared to jump in this direction as I though everyone would want some one much younger. Boy was I wrong. I had more families then I knew what to do with wanting to interview me. I went through a head hunting agency was it an eye opener. I ended up choosing a family that I worked with when I was a preschool teacher and an administrator at a daycare. But would use the agency again if I need. I'm excited but being my first time could use some help in what the expectations should be or how to set limits. Any business advice you could give would be great. Thanks.
Happy New Years! 
3 Blue Star Mother and Proud of it!
Pray for our troops to come home safe and soon.
Enjoying the road to the simple life :>) |
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Utahfarmgirl
True Blue Farmgirl
1940 Posts
Portland
Oregon
USA
1940 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2007 : 11:36:03 AM
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Ann, I don't see the problem. The Aramaic says "And this very thing is known to all who dwell in Jerusalem;so that the field is called in the language of the country, Khakal-Dema, which is to say Koriath-dem, the field of blood."
I could point out hundreds of verses that don't make sense in the KJV but do when you read the Aramaic translation, but I think for our purposes here, we should just say, "Whatever floats your boat" Whatever serves you is what you should use.
love,
Patricia
Proud Farmgirl Sister #19
check out my etsy site http://ThePlayfulFarmgirl.etsy.com
Take me home, country roads |
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Amie C.
True Blue Farmgirl
2099 Posts
Finger Lakes Region
NY
2099 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2007 : 1:57:09 PM
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Kay, I agree with Patricia and Ann. The differences between one translation and another are subtle, and studying them can certainly enhance your faith. But I wouldn't worry too much about using the "wrong" one. Personally, I love to dig into the historical details (thanks for introducing an interesting new idea Patricia!) but that's not everybody's thing.
Betty Jo, congratulations on the job and good luck starting out in this career. It sounds like you're going to be such a blessing to this family. Sorry this thread has taken such a wandering path away from your original post! |
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Rebekka Mae
True Blue Farmgirl
965 Posts
Rebekka
Moscow
ID
USA
965 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2007 : 2:16:57 PM
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Betty Jo-
That fact that you are seeking out this information so cheerfully for your new family tells me that you will do a beautiful job!
I know that this discussion is getting off topic from the original post but I must say that I really enjoy the discussion about different translations...and I think it matters very much from the point of view of comparative religious studies. My hunch is that closer you get to the original versions of ANY religious book, the more they have in common with one another.
Though every human has her or his own personal understanding of religion and spirituality these books are so often used to divide when the translations are taken literally...perhaps this is the origin of 'lost in translation'.
The people who wrote these translations, especially before the advent of the printing press, did so at the behest of very wealthy leaders who entangled religious doctrine with political concerns on a daily basis- some better than others. Should we not take a closer look at the differences in these texts and consider them in light of our own situation as humans today? Even the first editions of these books were penned by human hands so you can see that interpretation has always been part of religion.
Every sacred text has something beautiful to offer but our true spiritual development takes place when we love our neighbors and family through our words and our deeds- that happens outside of any book right now!
Warmly, Rebekka
www.bebebella.etsy.com
As a woman I have no country. As a woman, my country is the whole world.
Virginia Woolf |
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Utahfarmgirl
True Blue Farmgirl
1940 Posts
Portland
Oregon
USA
1940 Posts |
Posted - Dec 31 2007 : 4:21:20 PM
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Betty Jo, a big congratulations! That family is so lucky to have a nanny who cares so much! I think before long you'll be telling us they consider you part of the family!
Amie I agree that this kind of reseaerch thing isn't for everyone. I love digging into the past and figuring things out. Is it any wonder I was a reporter for some years when I lived in NY? (lol) I think the thing to remember when we look at any religion is to see that the common thread in them all is love for one another and for our Creator. I also think it's important to consider the times that gave birth to them. Politics played a large role in all of them and still does today. It scares me a little to see reigion being brought into this election. I agree with Jefferson on separation of church and state. I believe one's spirituality is one's relationship with God and one's religion is how that relationship is expressed. And it's a personal and private matter. It would be fun to dig into something together!
It's funny, Rebekka, when I did my Aramaic class at U of U (tah) they called it "Lost in Translation", which is a very apt description!
I saw a funny political cartoon today. It was about those 72 virgins waiting for those suicide bombers - turns out they're nuns with guns!
love,
Patricia
Proud Farmgirl Sister #19
check out my etsy site http://ThePlayfulFarmgirl.etsy.com
Take me home, country roads |
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bboopster
True Blue Farmgirl
1140 Posts
Betty Jo
West Bend
Wisconsin
USA
1140 Posts |
Posted - Jan 02 2008 : 3:41:54 PM
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Today a package arrived from Bath and Body Works with a very cool tub set in it. It was addressed to me and from the woman I will start working for on Monday. A thank you for playing Santa while she was gone. I called to thank her and tell her it was not really necessary as I enjoyed doing it. She said she just needed to show her appreciation for my kindness and for helping her. How sweet. I sure hope this job works as not only will I get to do what I love best (taking care of a family) but also make a life long friend.
3 Blue Star Mother and Proud of it!
Pray for our troops to come home safe and soon.
Enjoying the road to the simple life :>) |
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Leezard
True Blue Farmgirl
950 Posts
Elizabeth
Novi
MI
USA
950 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2008 : 4:07:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bboopster
Elizabeth, I am going to start my first Nanny job on the 7th. I am 48 so I was a bit scared to jump in this direction as I though everyone would want some one much younger. Boy was I wrong. I had more families then I knew what to do with wanting to interview me. I went through a head hunting agency was it an eye opener. I ended up choosing a family that I worked with when I was a preschool teacher and an administrator at a daycare. But would use the agency again if I need. I'm excited but being my first time could use some help in what the expectations should be or how to set limits. Any business advice you could give would be great. Thanks.
Happy New Years!
3 Blue Star Mother and Proud of it!
Pray for our troops to come home safe and soon.
Enjoying the road to the simple life :>)
Good for you! I hope things are going well with your new job! My biggest piece of advice would be to communicate your needs, concerns, questions, etc. to the best of your ability. If you can do that from the start you will be well on your way. My next suggestion would be to stay consistant with the kids but since you've worked in child care before I'm sure you'll be an old pro at that. I'd love to answer any questions or just chat about the job any time you'd like, just email me :)
http://ruby--slippers.blogspot.com/
www.leezard.etsy.com |
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Family Matters: Religion Question |
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Religion Question
