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Barnyard Buddies:  Horses...What NOT to breed for...  |
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goneriding
True Blue Farmgirl
1599 Posts
Winona
Central Oregon
USA
1599 Posts |
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Amie C.
True Blue Farmgirl
2099 Posts
Finger Lakes Region
NY
2099 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 13 2007 : 08:15:27 AM
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| More fun than badly dressed celebrities! I'm not even a horse person, but I had fun trying to spot the problems. I knew reading all those horse books as a kid would pay off someday! |
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UrbanFarmGirl
True Blue Farmgirl
57 Posts
Megan
Surprise
AZ
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - Jul 13 2007 : 08:21:47 AM
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 There are some harsh critiques in that blog. Holy cow, for sure! It does not surprise me to see animals like that. There are a lot of backyard breeders who do not take the time to research and plan properly. Even I have a breeding book (Blesses are the Broodmares) and I don't even breed! Heck, I don't even have my mare any longer!
Married to my hubby & the Army, my Meezer,and my birdies! |
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Marybeth
True Blue Farmgirl
6418 Posts
Mary Beth
Stanwood
Wa 98292
USA
6418 Posts |
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Alee
True Blue Farmgirl
22941 Posts
Alee
Worland
Wy
USA
22941 Posts |
Posted - Jul 13 2007 : 09:36:46 AM
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Oh My gosh! Thanks for sharing! It's like watching a train crash... I can't stop reading...
Alee
The amazing one handed typist! One hand for typing, one hand to hold Nora! |
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Love-in-a-Mist
True Blue Farmgirl
367 Posts
Shannon
Independence
Oregon
USA
367 Posts |
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Tracey
True Blue Farmgirl
766 Posts
Tracey
State of Confusion
USA
766 Posts |
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shepherdgirl
True Blue Farmgirl
1008 Posts
Tracy
California
USA
1008 Posts |
Posted - Jul 14 2007 : 11:52:36 PM
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| Boy, there sure are some NASTY comments on that site! But truth can sometimes BE an ugly thing. I was appalled! though couldn't stop laughing at some of those pictures. I have never SEEN such UGLY creatures!! The one that got me the most was the paint who's Dam was ALSO his GRAND-DAM!!!! Way back when, "Line-Breeding" (and some in-breeding) was a very common practice-- but it was also the quickest way to find out exactly what DEFECTS you had in your animals! It took a lot of culling to get superior quality animals, but then some of those defects became a fixed trait in particular lines-- Like the comment on the horse about "Impressive." I don't think the add was referring to the "Quality" of the horse in the picture, I believe it really WAS referring to the Quarter Horse line of "IMPRESSIVE"-- the Stallion! He was quite the hot commodity in his day and he was bred to everything under the sun. Absolutely GORGEOUS Jet black halter stallion who threw equally gorgeous babies. The irony of it all is-- he's also responsible for one of the most horrible genetic disorders in the breed!!! I can't remember exactly what it's called, but it's BAD! Has something to do with the horses metobolic processes (if I rememer right). I have a friend who had a horse from those lines and the mare would have siezures if she ate a high protien feed like Alfala. They had to be very careful what they fed her. There is genetic testing available that's been very helpful in lessening the spread of the disorder, but no one really knows how many of his offspring are out there, and how many are actually still carriers of those genes. I just hope that that site helps people make the right choices, despite the nasty comments. Tracey-- I have never heard of a German Riding Pony before! But if the person who posted the blog didn't even know about IMPRESSIVE (the HORSE), I'm not surprised if she didn't know it really IS an actual breed. Maybe she should visit the Kentucky Horse farm in KENTUCKY! They have horses THERE I've never heard of either! -- Tracy |
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Aunt Jenny
True Blue Farmgirl
11381 Posts
Jenny
middle of
Utah
USA
11381 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2007 : 12:02:02 AM
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I was doing research on dairy cows before getting Mona a couple years back and saw some "defective cows" with problems that were so outstanding..like these poor horses, that you just wonder what were the breeders thinking? Some of these faults must be downright painful!!
Jenny in Utah
Inside me there is a skinny woman crying to get out...but I can usually shut her up with cookies
http://www.auntjennysworld.blogspot.com/ visit my little online shop at www.auntjenny.etsy.com |
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Tracey
True Blue Farmgirl
766 Posts
Tracey
State of Confusion
USA
766 Posts |
Posted - Jul 15 2007 : 9:15:29 PM
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One of the really sad things is that we no longer know what's best when it comes to a horse's confirmation as we've been messing around with this and that, trying to tweak them for so many different things over the years. I never realized it until I started working with the mustangs. Granted, they don't always come with the type of beauty we're accustomed to with domestics, but there's something to be said for God's breeding program, you know?
The first thing that strikes me is that they haven't got as long of a neck as our domestic horses. Now...why do we need long, pretty necks? Years ago I had a chiropractor tell me that my long neck was lovely and fashionable, but also a detriment to my spine. Since my wild horses are able to reach the ground and eat without any problem, it's gotten me to wondering just why we want a longer neck? Mustangs are quite athletic, so the neck can't be that much of an influence.
My horse's legs are also better than most domestic horses, and I don't mean just in soundness. They're more correct. But if you think about it, those with crooked legs aren't going to last long. Sure, there are those who have the occasional problem, but even two champions who are bred to each other can throw a crippled offspring. The one thing with the legs that I've begun to notice is that my horses are slightly cow hocked. Not overly so, just slightly. Leaves me wondering if this actually creates a stronger hind leg? More push, perhaps?
To be honest, there aren't very many halter horses out there that can work, so I'm not sure why we bother calling them beautiful or correct. They've no more function in life than Barbie 
Shepherdgirl, I had to google it to find the German Pony. There are tons of breeds in Europe that most of us in N. America have never heard of. Kind of like folks thinking if a dog breed isn't recognized by the AKC, they must not be a real breed 
Please Vote For Me!
http://www.blogforayear.com/profiles/desperate-horsewife
http://carpentercreek.wordpress.com |
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goneriding
True Blue Farmgirl
1599 Posts
Winona
Central Oregon
USA
1599 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2007 : 5:30:55 PM
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I have ridden horses that were built all wrong and never took a bad step. However, I do believe that good conformation is GOOD, not just something extra. Ya gotta admit, some of those horses should have never been born! Backyard breeding at it's worst! The person who started the blog (I don't know who it is) is opinionated but I do agree with most of the assessments. But he/she also posted their horses and the problems they had. I think the whole blog is a real learning site, adult words and all...hehehe... I feel bad for the that halter monstrosity, the super heavily muscled halter horse. I once knew a national halter producer (he had the reigning (sp?) 2 yr old gelding in the nation at that time) and once the horses had won what they were supposed to, they weren't broke or sent off, they usually went to the killers. Matter of fact, there were numerous breeders whose business plans incorporated the kill pens for their horses. It's was tax write off. If you don't believe me, start reading some of the professional horse boards, I'm not meaning the learning boards, but the ones the pros hang out on.
Shepherdgirl, you're thinking of HYPP and there is another QH genetic malady associated with the Poco Bueno lines where the skin just peals off the horse.
Still, good confromation is important in the long run. The angles must match...such as the angle of the shoulder/hip must match. The angle of the shoulder/head must match, the angle of the pastern should be in the 45-52 degree range. The length of the underside of the neck should be the same as the length of the head. The length from the back of the withers (start of the back) should be the same length as the lenght from the same point back of the withers to the dock of the tail. If you drop a plumb line from the point of buttock, it should run down the back of the hock straigth down the leg to the fetlock to the ground. Also, a plumb line should run down the front leg, almost bisecting the hoof from the side. I like the same length of hip, barrel and shoulder but some people like a same length hip and shoulder with a shorter barrrel. The muscling on the inside of the gaskin should just about match the outside muscling. There will be a difference but it shouldn't be much. EVERY good athletic horse I've ever ridden has always V'd up in front between the front legs. I mean the true athlete. That horse could really handle his front end. It's one of those things I look for first. There is plenty more to conformation than this but I have to go but these are the basics. Good conformation is the best I think overall. There is a bit of wiggle room but not to extremes.
Winona ;-)
Don't sweat the small stuff...
http://goneridingagain.bravehost.com
PS. I looked up the German Riding Pony and they are lookers! However, some of them sure didn't look pony sized to me or either the rider up was pretty short! German Riding Pony...whodda thought?
W. :-0
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Edited by - goneriding on Jul 18 2007 5:36:25 PM |
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Horseyrider
True Blue Farmgirl
1045 Posts
Mary Ann
Illinois
1045 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2007 : 05:24:16 AM
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Okay, I'll get on my soapbox here.
I'm a professional. I have trained for decades, I've run a college level horse program, I've been a farrier, I've guest lectured, run clinics, volunteered 4-H, you name it. And I'll tell you the truth of it. Pretty is as pretty does. I've seen some dinks worse than any of the ones on that site that were as gentle and safe for a child as you could have, and not be the kind you put quarters in. I've also seen exquisitely made horses that would eat you for lunch and spit out the bones if they had the chance.
The study of conformation is a worthy one; and even more worthy is the study of biomechanics, or how the way the horse is made, the set of the joints and the lay of the muscles, affects movement. But DANG, while there are certainly some badly made horses there, I'd rather be sent a badly made horse with a great mind and have a chance to make it better than a perfect specimen with no brain. Since God has yet to make a perfect horse, you have to take what you're given and improve upon it. But you can't do that UNLESS the horse is willing to meet you halfway.
Many of the horses I see in this site have a desperate need for a chiropractor. They stand camped under because their lower back is screaming. I see evidence of ill fitting saddles in their postures, and of incorrect work done too soon. It's not always conformational; it's human error and ignorance.
I think the author of the site is right in pointing out that most horses should never be bred. That's true. But many of the horses in the world that are most butt ugly are loved by someone. Horses often have a willingness to rise above their physical limitations, and in the right hands a bad horse can be made good, and a good horse can be made great.
One thing I learned in judging is to speak in positive terms about a horse. You don't say a horse has a long back; you say the horse needs a shorter back. You don't say a horse has a head like a hammer; you say the horse needs more refinement about the head. And you find something nice to say about every single one, no matter how hard you have to search, because at the end of every leadline is someone who cares deeply. The lack of tact on this site is deplorable. Would you ever talk that tactlessly about someone's child? I don't buy the excuse that the stupid people need to hear it, either. Most folks do what they know; and when they know better, they do better. Hitting them over the head with a two by four isn't warranted.
Oh, and the skin disease you're thinking of is HERDA-- Hereditary Equine Regional Dermal Asthenia. I knew a reiner that passed it to his babies.
*stepping off soapbox--- for now* |
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junkjunkie
True Blue Farmgirl
1306 Posts
Judy
Lawrenceville
NJ
USA
1306 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2007 : 06:52:25 AM
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I don't know a thing about horses, but this site was very interesting. I suppose for the horse's overall health sake, good conformation is important, especially when you use the horse for riding or work. I can understand if you were showing it, conformation is key. I tend to agree with Mary Ann, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The less than perfect horses are probably the sweetest and there's always someone out there that will love them. Even though this site is educational, the comments are a little mean spirited. If I owned one the fugly horses, I would understand it limitations, and not try to force it to do anything that would hurt it, and of course, would not breed it.
"To have life in focus, we must have death in our field of vision." Benedictine monk John Main |
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goneriding
True Blue Farmgirl
1599 Posts
Winona
Central Oregon
USA
1599 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2007 : 7:55:20 PM
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Thanks for the HERDA name. I've read about it but couldn't recall what it was called. I've had QH's with the scabby spots way in the past and wondered if they had hit themselves somehow and then I read the article years later.
As for the HYPP, I know halter breeders who breed for N/H so they get the big muscles but hopefully not the downside. Ideally, you want N/N. I don't know enuf about it to talk knowledgably (sp?) but just what the halter people told me and I've what read up on Impressive.
Horseyrider, I wondered what you thought of the Freisian crosses... Not good I'm assuming. As for conformation I personally want a horse that is a bit of a looker, yes, I'm that vain nowadays!! That poor Paint gelding, he was so fugly that I'd have to have him just cuz he WAS that fugly!! Poor thing!! I want a good mind PLUS some looks.
Well, I thought this site might get a few comments and I guess I was right, huh?? hehehe...
W. :-)
Don't sweat the small stuff...
http://goneridingagain.bravehost.com
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Horseyrider
True Blue Farmgirl
1045 Posts
Mary Ann
Illinois
1045 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2007 : 07:58:49 AM
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I have taken a tremendous roasting on this in the past, but I'm one of those that does not agree with Friesian crosses in most situations. It seems like with QH/warmblood crosses, you seem to get the worst traits of both parents in the offspring. You lose some of the grace and style (and hair!) of the Friesian, and the resulting colt doesn't look like it has substantial bone; it just looks coarse. While there have been some really beautiful nicks, the bulk of them are inferior to both parents. This is why I don't ever advocate someone taking their stock horse mare to a Friesian sire. The resulting colt is 100% of your foal crop, and the odds of you getting something spectacular are limited.
Plus, my horses are registered with FHANA, the Dutch registry, and they specify that crossbreeding is strictly forbidden. If you are caught crossbreeding, you are kicked out of FHANA, and your horse's papers are rescinded and they become a grade. They are highly particular about what constitutes a breeding stallion, and all breeding stallions must be approved by a rigorous process before being allowed to breed. At my last count, there were only 92 FHANA registered approved breeding stallions in the entire world.
OTOH, the German registry is not nearly so picky. They have an approvals process, but you don't have to go through it to breed your horse. You can crossbreed if you want, too. The pricetag on these horses is generally two thirds to one half that of a FHANA registered horse, although the FHANA registered stallions are often around a million dollars. German registered studs are not so expensive. There are many exquisite horses in the German registry, and many dinks in the Dutch registry, but overall the Dutch registry has the finer stock, IMO.
A point has to be made here about genetic diversity though. I really worry for the Dutch bred horses because there is so much inbreeding. One of the things mare owners always do in selecting a sire is to run an inbreeding coefficient on the cross. One would think that the loss of hybrid vigor will mean that we're setting up for a genetic catastrophe. But until FHANA allows crossbreeding, I would never do it, and I don't know that I'd buy a cross, either. Like you say, there's a lot of fugly out there. |
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Tracey
True Blue Farmgirl
766 Posts
Tracey
State of Confusion
USA
766 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2007 : 08:37:40 AM
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quote:
The study of conformation is a worthy one; and even more worthy is the study of biomechanics, or how the way the horse is made, the set of the joints and the lay of the muscles, affects movement. But DANG, while there are certainly some badly made horses there, I'd rather be sent a badly made horse with a great mind and have a chance to make it better than a perfect specimen with no brain. Since God has yet to make a perfect horse, you have to take what you're given and improve upon it. But you can't do that UNLESS the horse is willing to meet you halfway.
Amen to that.
quote:
If you drop a plumb line from the point of buttock, it should run down the back of the hock straigth down the leg to the fetlock to the ground.
Why? I mean...I know that's what I was taught for years and years, but let's take a look at what happens in nature. Horses who actually work for a living aren't built that way. They tend to either be a bit cowy or narrow in the back. There's got to be a reason for that, don't you think?
Please Vote For Me!
http://www.blogforayear.com/profiles/desperate-horsewife
http://carpentercreek.wordpress.com |
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Barnyard Buddies: Horses...What NOT to breed for... |
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Horses...What NOT to breed for...
Just the way this person (whom I don't know) speaks. But the truth in here is a real learning experience!! 
