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Cleaning Up:  Question about economy and ecology  |
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happymama58
True Blue Farmgirl
1210 Posts
Patti
Missouri
USA
1210 Posts |
 Posted - Apr 05 2006 : 5:14:44 PM
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Reading Rabbithorn's post about using cloth only has helped me crystallize a question that's been circulating in my head. I hope I can make sense of what I mean, so please bear with me. And Rabbithorn, please know I'm not questioning you or your methods. I'm just trying to make sense of all this and put it in a way I can get my head around it all.
Okay, if a person quits using paper towels, etc., because of the price, the landfill issues, and the ecology (factories producing them emit pollution), they'd use cloth instead, right? If so, instead of throwing the papers away or, hopefully, recycling them, they have to be washed. Washing means soap & water. If you wash them in the machine, that takes electricity. Most laundry detergents (and even if you make your own, the contents like Fels Naptha or whatever it's called, is bought and was made somewhere) is made in factories, the electricity must be produced, etc.
What I'm wondering is, at what point do you know which alternative is more economical, ecological, etc?
I remember reading in either Cheapskate Monthly or Tightwad Gazette, that there's a way to figure these things out. But I'm math imparied, and the money issue isn't the only part. It's the environment, etc., too. So when *do* you know which is the best way -- the natural or the manufactured?
I only used the idea of paper towels because it came to mind first, but there are other similar issues.
Some people search for happiness; others create it.
http://happymama58.typepad.com/my_weblog/ |
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LJRphoto
True Blue Farmgirl
760 Posts
Laura
Hickory Corners
MI
USA
760 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2006 : 8:12:44 PM
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I don't have an answer for you, Patti, but I question things like this too. I personally just try to think it all the way through and make the best decision I can. i'd love to know if there is a formula.
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." -Mark Twain
http://ljrenterprises.blogspot.com/ |
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garliclady
True Blue Farmgirl
274 Posts
Reidsville
NC
274 Posts |
Posted - Apr 05 2006 : 8:19:21 PM
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I have wondered too. I use disposable diapers and know they fill up the land fill but washing diapes etc is not always eco friendly either. Economical? Is my baby more confortable and drier with the disposables I think so. The one thing I did figure out on my first baby everyone gave me disposable diapers (all kinds ) I realized I used less diapers with the expensive ones than cheap ones because they cheap ones tore or leaked quicker meaning chaging more often. The best thing I thought I could do was buy the better ones and buy on sale and with saved coupons/ I am almost past the diaper stage on my second & Last one so I am not changing now but I agree it can be conficting ?
My Farm http://home.bellsouth.net/p/s/community.dll?ep=16&ext=1&groupid=140532&ck=
My Recipes http://recipecircus.com/recipes/garliclady/]
My blog http://www.epicourier.com/Garliclady/ |
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happymama58
True Blue Farmgirl
1210 Posts
Patti
Missouri
USA
1210 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 08:00:05 AM
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Wouldn't it be nice and simple if these things weren't so complicated? I told dh I was going to not put a dishwasher in the new house, and that I was going to do all dishes by hand. A few days later, he saw an article saying that hand washing isn't necessarily better for the environment!
I'm not a fanatic about this, but as I have this opportunity to sort of start from scratch, I'd like to make wise decisions. It's just so darned confusing sometimes!
Some people search for happiness; others create it.
http://happymama58.typepad.com/my_weblog/ |
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sonflowergurl
True Blue Farmgirl
349 Posts
Katee
Tampa 'Burbs
FL
USA
349 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 2:59:06 PM
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I just had this conversation with a co-worker today. Our students are coloring paper bags for Earth Day, so we were wondering which was really better for the environment, paper or plastic? Paper is biodegradable, but requires cutting down trees. Plastic doesn't break down, but....yeah. So anyway, which is truly best? Who really knows?!? UGH!
Looking Toward the Son,
Katee
The end will justify the pain it took to get us here. |
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rabbithorns
True Blue Farmgirl
544 Posts
Allison
Fort Scott
KS
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 4:35:37 PM
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I totally agree with your question and it's something I try to figure out before I try something new. Because I can wash the cloth TP in a gallon jar using 2 cups of hot water and squeeze rinse them in a laundry rinse water tub, I'm not using much water.
Beans has been my signature issue for considering all sides to the story. Dry beans cost me $1, but the same amount (4-5 cups cooked) canned cost $1.25. But cooking the beans costs me 50 cents or so of electricity to cook them! So it's more cost effective for me to buy the beans, if I'm comparing costs.
Also, I wash dishes using only 2 gallons of water and I only wash them once a day. A dishwasher uses between 9-16 gallons to wash dishes plus lots of hot water heater energy. I wash in warm to hot water but rinse in room temp. Our dishwasher (it came with the place) is used for storage only.
So I think you are so right, happymama, that you have to look at each issue from start to finish to see if it makes sense for you. That dry beans thing? When I go on retreat, I'm not going to able to dispose of the empty cans, so it's back to dry beans. But I'll be sprouting them since I won't have the fuel to cook them for hours. Each system just depends on what your needs are and what resources you have or don't have. |
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happymama58
True Blue Farmgirl
1210 Posts
Patti
Missouri
USA
1210 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 5:46:28 PM
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Thanks for the insightful response, Rabbithorns. I really need to do some research on some of these issues because I am woefully uneducated. I had no idea a dishwasher used that much water, for example!
I definitely want to make thought-out, wise decisions. I guess I'll be doing some research!
Some people search for happiness; others create it.
http://happymama58.typepad.com/my_weblog/ |
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celebrate2727
True Blue Farmgirl
989 Posts
Beth
MJF
Farmgirl
989 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 6:36:05 PM
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just remebering something i read here about napkins- the purpose of the napkin ring was so a person could use a cloth napkin and then roll it back up in their ring and reuse it several times before washing
blessings
beth
Dreaming of Friday Night Lights
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sonflowergurl
True Blue Farmgirl
349 Posts
Katee
Tampa 'Burbs
FL
USA
349 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 6:48:12 PM
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I just read on the link someone posted (50 ways to save the world) an answer to my question about the grocery bags (of course, if I could get the cloth bags, that would be better)..."always choose paper or cardboard over plastic".
Looking Toward the Son,
Katee
The end will justify the pain it took to get us here. |
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theoanne
True Blue Farmgirl
282 Posts
teddie
CARROLLTON
GA
282 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 7:28:18 PM
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On the dishwasher subject....it uses more(?) water(how many dishes can you wash in a load) but the water is much hotter to kill germs. are we saving water or killing germs???
Teddie |
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rabbithorns
True Blue Farmgirl
544 Posts
Allison
Fort Scott
KS
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - Apr 06 2006 : 8:28:01 PM
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| My dd used to eat Cheerios off the driveway and she's the healthiest one in the whole family! I don't place much stock in the whole germ-free thing. I mean, people who use disinfectants and dishwashers get just as sick as people who don't. And in the end, everyone dies. I don't see the point; sorry. And once the dishes are dry, germs can't live there. That's why you can go camping and wash your dishes in a cold stream using sand and you won't get sick. Once the dishes dry, it's a moot point. |
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sqrl
True Blue Farmgirl
605 Posts
Melissa
Northern California
USA
605 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2006 : 09:42:08 AM
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it is good to question this kind of stuff...Always making sure we're doing it right. This is the way we deal with in our house. If it can be reused it's the better method.. We even try to reuse instead of recycle. Like, I don't buy jarred food things, people would say but you can recycle or reuse the jars, so thats ok well..It takes energy to produce, ship, and store those food jars and than it takes energy to recycle them. Ok So..I try to do it with less steps..Let say we're talking about canned tomaotes..Many people keep a constant supply of jarred tomatoes and I'm like anyone else I like having tomaotes to use all year so I try to do with less of a footprint (ecological footprint). So I get my tomatoes at the end of the summer in big boxes at the farmer market and jar them myself. Now..The tomaotes still have to be shipped, and I need energy to jar the tomatoes but I have now elimited many steps in between. This is how you try to fix the problem - break it do into the actual energy it takes to produce the product and how much energy it takes for it to break down and decompose. Plastic verses paper - well paper is dirty to produce but I'm sure plastic is too and paper decomposes faster - hey I throw all our paper in the compost so as far as I'm concerned it's the best as far disposable items go.I prefer cloth..Yes you have to wash it but you do not have to use the dryer to dry it and soaps can be produced without harming the environment as many of us here know who make their own soaps. We make it a huge part of our lifes to live this way so if anyone else has questions, I may have answers or at least ideas...
Blessed Be
www.sqrlbee.com
www.smallsqrl.blogspot.com
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happymama58
True Blue Farmgirl
1210 Posts
Patti
Missouri
USA
1210 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2006 : 10:34:00 AM
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Are there any papers, other than colored (like wrapping paper), that you don't compost?
Some people search for happiness; others create it.
http://happymama58.typepad.com/my_weblog/ |
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sqrl
True Blue Farmgirl
605 Posts
Melissa
Northern California
USA
605 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2006 : 11:18:06 AM
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well we don't use much paper - Well now that I think about it all of the "printed office paper" we reuse by printing on the other side (DH even turns in his homework assignments on them) and then recycle. We compost all other paper though. And if we had a bigger compost we might throw the office paper in ther too. But recycling paper at least ensures the procustion of recycled paper instead of using trees. This is why it is so important to buy recycled paper prodcts bacause you casting your vote for usinmg recycyled papers instead of trees. Remember we're not not looking for perfection just awareness. Just do the best you can.
Blessed Be
www.sqrlbee.com
www.smallsqrl.blogspot.com
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LJRphoto
True Blue Farmgirl
760 Posts
Laura
Hickory Corners
MI
USA
760 Posts |
Posted - Apr 07 2006 : 9:23:23 PM
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i'd like to add something on the dishwasher for Patti. Since you would be starting fresh with a brand new dishwasher, they do make very efficient dishwashers now that only use 5 gallons of water and are also more energy efficient otherwise if you want a dishwasher.
Also, salmonella can live on a dry surface for at least 24 hours (other germs can live there for several hours). i too think that we, as a society, are obsessed with the germ free thing, but i like anything that my family is going to eat off of washed in HOT, soapy water.
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." -Mark Twain
http://ljrenterprises.blogspot.com/ |
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rabbithorns
True Blue Farmgirl
544 Posts
Allison
Fort Scott
KS
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2006 : 11:07:23 AM
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| I had no idea salmonella can survive even if the infected surface is dry. I wouldn't think it's much of a problem for vegetarians unless they also eat eggs, right? |
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celebrate2727
True Blue Farmgirl
989 Posts
Beth
MJF
Farmgirl
989 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2006 : 4:53:58 PM
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hey sqrl- have you ever thought about how much paper a school uses. i get more handouts from my kids and most times it's duplicate information. i know that i get a discount for getting an e-bill from sprint instead of a paper one. would be nice if schools did this. plus i'd be able to find the info i need instead of having the kids remember to give the sheet of paper to me in the first place. plus imagine what it would save $$ wise for the school district.
blessings
betht
Dreaming of Friday Night Lights
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Rebekka Mae
True Blue Farmgirl
965 Posts
Rebekka
Moscow
ID
USA
965 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2006 : 5:38:33 PM
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When I researched the cloth diaper issue it became clear that buying some gently used diapers and washing them was far better than putting disposables into a landfill (I only do an extra load or two per week and my daughters booty never gets red in cloth like in the disposables). Using disposables is such a huge expense...Plus- did you know that you must flush poop from your disposables or you are putting human waste into the landfill? An often overlooked step that not many I know ever take the time for. I bought all gently used for my first baby and now that we are pregnant with the second they will all work again. When I need to use disposables I buy seventh generation.
This same logical falls to cloth napkins, I buy them at thrift stores or make them out of fabric leftovers- so no special production or shipping just for me- we reuse them if they are not dirty and hang them to dry to save energy (I do machine dry the diapers so they are not too crisp on baby's behind). They are also less wrinkled because of this and so much more satisfying to use than paper.
Just try to buy used and then reuse whatever you can....
We are all just doing our best to respect the planet and our family budgets, it is nice to share all these ideas!
Rebekka
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sonflowergurl
True Blue Farmgirl
349 Posts
Katee
Tampa 'Burbs
FL
USA
349 Posts |
Posted - Apr 08 2006 : 9:16:17 PM
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Beth, I love the idea of having all of the school info online, and maybe even sending it out via email. The only problem with this is that even though "most" students have a computer at home, not every one does. It would be difficult to give a non-computer student a piece of paper to take home, and not be singled out by it. I am an instructional assistant at my school, and as often as possible, I make double-sided copies for the teachers to help save on paper. It is ridiculous how much paper is wasted at schools, that's true. At least at our school, we have recycling bins for paper products, so we know it's being recycled. (Along with cardboard, newspapers, styrofoam lunch trays, milk cartons, cellphones, ink cartridges, and batteries---all of the "recycling programs" our school participates in.)
Looking Toward the Son,
Katee
The end will justify the pain it took to get us here. |
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sqrl
True Blue Farmgirl
605 Posts
Melissa
Northern California
USA
605 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2006 : 11:48:52 AM
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yeah Beth I hear ya! At work I have a place for all the white office paper we get in faxes and other stuff. I use this paper as scrap and try to print on the back. But it's so much paper. Just the other day I was thinking as I was loading three huge boxes of recycling inthe car why am I even doing this when I leave they're not going to recycyle...But I just can't throw it away, it makes me sick to think of all this stuff wasted... So I just do what I can for now at least.
Blessed Be
www.sqrlbee.com
www.smallsqrl.blogspot.com
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CityCat
True Blue Farmgirl
198 Posts
Catherine
Toronto
Ontario
Canada
198 Posts |
Posted - Apr 10 2006 : 9:16:22 PM
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I know not everyone is a biology geek, but here goes...
Bacteria have ways to survive dessication. They create spores, and can live for hundreds of years that way in basically suspended animation. Bacillus bacteria don't normally produce spores, but E. coli, and Streptococcus bacteria can produce spores.
Now, I'm not trying to scare ya, but it's pure ignorance to think that bacteria aren't there because the plates or whatever are dry.
BUT if you are healthy, your immune system is in good working order and remains that way, the likelihood of getting ill are low.
And I have problems with the use of cloth tp due to my having taken numerous microbiology courses. Do you at least use bleach? All I can envision are constant urinary tract infections... (sorry... kinda graphic...)
Just had to add my 2 cents -Cat |
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rabbithorns
True Blue Farmgirl
544 Posts
Allison
Fort Scott
KS
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2006 : 09:03:51 AM
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I do not use bleach on the cloth tp only because I made them from old tie-dyed t-shirts. But I was thinking of buying some birdseye (diaper fabric) and making some from that so they can be easily bleached. Problem with that is: I don't want to throw bleach into the environment. I do dry the cloths in full sun (no shortage of that in Arizona) and that's supposed to kill stuff anyway.
BTW, there's nothing inherently toxic in urine. - ' "If you don't have any urinary infections, urine is aseptic. It doesn't contain any bad bugs," says Toni Steer of the Medical Research Council Human Nutrition Unit in Cambridge. ' Aseptic means free of living germs. |
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sonflowergurl
True Blue Farmgirl
349 Posts
Katee
Tampa 'Burbs
FL
USA
349 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2006 : 10:32:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by rabbithorns
BTW, there's nothing inherently toxic in urine. - ' "If you don't have any urinary infections, urine is aseptic. It doesn't contain any bad bugs," says Toni Steer of the Medical Research Council Human Nutrition Unit in Cambridge. ' Aseptic means free of living germs.
LOL, that's why they peed on jelly fish stings on "Friends".  hehe
Katee
The end will justify the pain it took to get us here.
"Looking Toward the Son"---- http://sonflowergirl731.blogspot.com
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_Rebecca_
True Blue Farmgirl
568 Posts
Rebecca
OK
USA
568 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2006 : 12:45:43 PM
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On dishwashers:
Most of the energy used by dishwashers is actually the energy required for heating the water they consume. An efficient dishwasher uses less water to do the job. Virtually all dishwashers available today use booster heaters to further heat the water supplied by the water heater to the higher temperatures required for dishwashing, so you can reduce the temperature of your water heater to 120° for additional energy savings. All of the models in our list exceed the ENERGY STAR requirements and are at least 45% more efficient than the federal minimum standard. Many of the newer models also use significantly less water—as much as one-half less—than hand washing.
Many of the dishwashers on the market today incorporate soil-sensors to adjust water use depending on how dirty the dishes are in each load washed. A new test procedure has been adopted to better estimate the energy consumption of soil-sensing dishwasher models. As a result, the data presented here and on updated EnergyGuide labels allows for more accurate comparisons among models.
Recent studies demonstrate that most new dishwashers do a great job cleaning even the dirtiest dishes without pre-rinsing. So give yourself a break and skip the unnecessary step of pre-rinsing—you'll save money along with precious water, energy, and time.
from the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy
http://www.aceee.org/consumerguide/topdish.htm
.·:*¨¨* :·.Rebecca.·:*¨¨* :·.
Wife of Jonathan, Mother of Joel, Caitlyn, Elia |
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sonflowergurl
True Blue Farmgirl
349 Posts
Katee
Tampa 'Burbs
FL
USA
349 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2006 : 12:56:19 PM
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Good info Rebecca! I can use quite a lot of water when handwashing dishes some days. Our "next" place WILL have a dishwasher! I do plan to make sure my appliances all have the "energy star" on them if I have a say.
Now if there were just an easy AND inexpensive way to convert older cars to using biofuels...
Katee
The end will justify the pain it took to get us here.
"Looking Toward the Son"---- http://sonflowergirl731.blogspot.com
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happymama58
True Blue Farmgirl
1210 Posts
Patti
Missouri
USA
1210 Posts |
Posted - Apr 11 2006 : 2:11:01 PM
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Well, shoot! The dishwasher posts have blown my idea of not putting a dishwasher in the new house. Dh and the kids want one, but I didn't and was saying that it would be more ecological to hand-wash. Now I'll have to share what I've learned here and tell them they win -- we'll get a dishwasher.
Oh well, I'd rather make an informed decision than a wrong one. I really am learning so much from this thread and appreciate all the dialogue here. Keep it coming -- I'm taking tons of notes.
Some people search for happiness; others create it.
http://happymama58.typepad.com/my_weblog/ |
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Cleaning Up: Question about economy and ecology |
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Question about economy and ecology
