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Farm Kitchen:  Bread Baking, What makes a good loaf?  |
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Eileen
True Blue Farmgirl
1199 Posts
Eileen
USA
1199 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 21 2004 : 1:59:57 PM
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The question of bread baking came up in another thread this morning and I have been thinking about itever since.  Yummy!
I have just come from putting my dough to rise for tonights sourdough bread. As I was kneading it I was wondering what does constitute a good loaf of bread.
When I hear people say that they just can't make a good loaf of bread or that their bread is too heavy I wonder what it means and I see in my mind a marshmallow soft loaf of Wonderbread and I shudder.
It has been such a long time since I baked with regular grocery store white flour that I have a very different idea of what a good loaf is from a lot of people. We have a wheat allergy here so I use Spelt and grind my own when I can get the spelt berries or get the ground spelt at the co-op if I am making pastries. However I think the principles still apply.
First if you are going to get serious about making bread do not expect your bread to look, smell, taste or feel like store bought bread even from one of those specialty bakeries.
You need to be working in a warm kitchen, your ingredients need to be as fresh as possible and you need to be patient (with yourself and the bread.) It has a learning curve like anything else and gets better with practice.
When you say your bread always turns out to heavy I wonder what that means, is it short and will not rise to the top of the pan, does it rise only to fall in the oven, or does each loaf weigh ten pounds and is dry and crumbly? Each of these problems is overcome by different things.
Is your yeast fresh? Did you dissolve it in water that was too hot or too cool? Use a thermometer always! Are you kneading it long enough or too long maybe. The flour will be the determining factor here. I must be careful not to overknead my bread as spelt has very fragile gluten and it gets broken down with too much kneading resulting in a flat loaf or crumbly bad texture.
What kind of bread do you want to make?
Do you knead by hand or with a machine?
The fresher the flour the better the gluten will respond to the kneading. If kneading by hand keep your board just lightly floured between each turn as opposed to a lot of flour.
What is your proceedure to kneading. I take the dough out of the bowl after I get as much flour worked in with a wooden spoon as I can and flatten it on a wooden cutting board then begin by bringing the edge farthest away from me about 3/4 of the way forward over the ball and using the heal of my hand give it a good hard push into the lower section while pushing away in a slow rocking motion from myself then I turn the dough about 1/4 turn around the board, flour under it and repeat the motion. With regular white flour this should be done for about 15 minutes. Kind of a Zen meditation proceedure. The dough should no longer be sticky but smooth and elastic. My mother used to describe this state as that of a babies bottom, you gently pinch it and it springs right back. With Spelt you only do this as long as it takes to get the dough un-sticky. Then you place the ball of dough into a well greased bowl and turn it over to grease the other side, cover and place in a warm place for 1 to 2 hours. Patience here! It must double in bulk before you punch it down. The best place is in a gas oven where the pilot light keeps the oven warm. You can place a bowl of steaming water in a regular oven on the lower rack and place your bowl of bread on the upper rack of a conventional oven closing the door to keep in the warmth. In my case I have a wall mounted microwave oven that is warm inside if I keep the light on that illuminates the burners on the stove below.
When it is ready, you punch it down literally! One punch in the center of the dough to deflate it,pull it together and divide into two loaves if called for or shape according to type of bread you are making.Regular loaves require well greased loaf pans. Place your shaped loaves into the pans and again have patience to wait until those loaves have risen at the highest point to 2 inches above the edges of the pan for regular loaves. Preheat your oven acording to your bread and bake. If your bread falls when you put it into the oven you may have waited too long to put it into the oven or you may have not worked enough flour into the dough. If you think you have waited too long to get it to the oven, before you put it in the oven you can reshape it and allow it to rise again. I have accidentally forgotten to check on bread a time or two and it was too far over the edge of the pans so have just taken it out of the pans and reshaped it. It rises more quickly this time so if you do this watch it. I always begin to preheat my oven about 5 minutes before the bread looks ready.
To determine if you have a good loaf just watch the reaction of your family when you take it out of the oven. Do they beg for a fresh warm slice slathered with fresh creamery butter? If so SUCCESS!
Eileen
songbird; singing joy to the earth |
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Idahospud
True Blue Farmgirl
67 Posts
Nikki
Emmett
Idaho
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - Oct 21 2004 : 3:36:14 PM
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Well, I'm one of those wannabe bread-bakers. I remember my Grandma's homemade whole-wheat bread, which was rich and brown and pulled apart like a dream. I loved helping her put the wheat in the grinder, and I remember being amazed at how strong she must be to knead all that dough after she gave me a go at it a time or two. I have no desire to eat let alone make Wonder-type bread, but I would like to stop paying $3.50 a loaf for the Great Harvest bread from the GH bakery in Boise. We even took a homeschool tour there once and I was on a spy mission for myself to figure out HOW to reproduce it in my kitchen.
My rolls and breadsticks usually turn out great. But something about the second rising when I try to make a loaf of bread is where I seem to fail. Maybe I overestimate how much flour should be in there, maybe I handle it too much after punching it down, maybe I'm not patient enough to let it rise, but it doesn't get 2 inches above the pan! Then after it is baked, the texture is heavy and there aren't those tiny air pockets that give it a crumbly lightness.
I appreciate you writing down your techniques--maybe I'll give it a go again this weekend. To be honest, I haven't even tried making loaves in at least two years. |
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Eileen
True Blue Farmgirl
1199 Posts
Eileen
USA
1199 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2004 : 09:29:35 AM
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Nikki,
If your family has no wheat allergies you could add about 1/4 cup pure wheat gluten to your first flour addition. If you are grinding your own flour you might try the red winter wheat. The stores and even most of the bigg bakeries use some form of dough conditioner to get the softer texture. What is your altitude there? Also the humidity will affect the flour. After punching down my dough I handle it only as much as I need to get the shaping. For loaves I cut the ball of dough in half with a sharp knife, set one to the side, Barely flour the board and flatten the piece to a rectangle about8 by 10 inches. I fold one of the long edges to the center and flatten out the air and pull the second edge over that to the center and flatten the air out then roll as for a jelly roll and pinch the edge to the loaf, then pinch the ends together and place it edge side down in the pan, brush the tops with melted butter and wait for it to rise. I would say that if it has risen well to the top of your bowl on the first rising and isn't rising on the second rising that you may have handled it to much or it has gotten cold. I raise my loaves in the same warm environment as the first rising. If it hasn't risen in the loaf pans after 2 hours I would take it out of the bread pans and make bread sticks and start over for the loaves. I have also used such dispondent bread dough for pizza crust, and I have even divided it and frozen the dough for later use as a stuffed baked sandwich which after thawing the dough I roll it to a 12 inch square and spread with basil, put steamed and well drained spinach, sauted mushrooms and onions, fresh basil leaves, and crumbled feta cheese down the middle. Fold the two sides over the top, pinch shut on the ends and up the edge. Slice diagonally just through the top layer, brushed with beaten egg and sprinkled with sesame seeds. Bake at 350 for 30 minutes. Slice into 6 diagonal slices and serve hot. Oh what a treat to come out of a mistake! Happy baking
Eileen
songbird; singing joy to the earth |
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MeadowLark
True Blue Farmgirl
2206 Posts
USA
2206 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2004 : 10:32:50 AM
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Eileen your knowledge astounds me! Thank you for the info! I love breadbaking. Every Christmas for the last 28 years I bake Chrisstollen. My dream is to someday build a woodburning oven outdoors as we are real fans of wood-fired pizza! What kind of commercial yeast do you recommend? Have you used baking stones? I read an article years ago about a baker in NYC that uses grapes in his starters for the natural yeasts. Do you have knowledge on this? Believe me we got the grapes! I have ground our own wheat for some loaves. Delicious and chewy and tasted of the earth! I like my breads chewy on the inside and tough or heavy crust on the outside. An excellent read on bread is "Six Thousand Years of Bread, It's Holy and Unholy History" by H.E. Jacob.
Time Flies |
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Eileen
True Blue Farmgirl
1199 Posts
Eileen
USA
1199 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2004 : 1:19:51 PM
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Jenny, sounds like another must have for my kitchen cookbook collection.
OOOOO grapes in the starter, Never heard of it but bet it makes a really good dough. I shared my sourdough recipe on the recipies I'd love to share thread. I use yogurt to get it going but the addition of a few pureed grapes would be wonderful.
We helped to build a Cobb oven this summer and it is wonderful! I have one in the design for next summer in our yard. Once you have it fired up you can bake several batches before you have to fire it up again. I think the name of the book we got the instructions out of is "Build your own Earth Oven" by Kiko Denzer. You can get the books at greenlivingbooks@surfglobal.net. or call 877-256-9453. They sell below amazon and will beat other prices as well if they have your book. Most of what they have is in the chelsie green book catalogue.They have all the great organic living, permaculture, alternative fuel type books. Everything you ever wanted to know about going organic and vegetarian. If you call her she will send you a catalogue.
I have a pampered chef baking stone that I love. It was the only one small enough for my fifth wheels oven. We lived in it for 5 years.I got my daughter one of their loaf pans that she loves but wishes it was smaller.
I get a really nice crust on my sourdough by brushing the surface with a mixture of either cold water and cornstarch or potatoe starch two times while it bakes. I love mine tough and crunchy too.
I usually get Red Star yeast only because that is what is available here but I recently found some in bulk by "BOBS RED MILL' that was wonderful and so alive I only had to use 1/2 as much as most recipies call for. I am looking for it again!!!
Eileen
songbird; singing joy to the earth |
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MeadowLark
True Blue Farmgirl
2206 Posts
USA
2206 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2004 : 2:04:58 PM
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Thanks for the link Eileen. Sounds like a site I will love. I am still researching ovens...your cobb oven sounds intriging! My husband said if we had to build over again we would use straw bales. It is really the up and coming thing now and straw is so plentiful here in Kansas.
Time Flies |
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Eileen
True Blue Farmgirl
1199 Posts
Eileen
USA
1199 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2004 : 2:15:13 PM
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Our home is going to be Straw bale and cobb combination. Can't wait till next summer to get started! Straw is not plentiful here on this side of Wa. but is in eastern Wa. There is a coalition of farmers dedicated to making straw bales uniform and with the righ amount of moisture content in Wasnington spcifically for this new and coming market. Straw bale is not new but is suddenly in Vogue for a lot of good reasons!
Eileen
songbird; singing joy to the earth |
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Kim
True Blue Farmgirl
146 Posts
Kim
Pflugerville
Texas
USA
146 Posts |
Posted - Oct 22 2004 : 11:19:26 PM
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I love baking bread from scratch. I have a bread machine, but I made my first loaf in high school (24 yrs ago) with a recipre from Seventeen Magazine. I wish I still had that recipe. Kneading a loaf with your hands is an experience you need to have. There is no way to describe it, along with the smell and texture. It is like meditation.
farmgirl@heart
Be at peace with yourself and the rest will follow |
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MeadowLark
True Blue Farmgirl
2206 Posts
USA
2206 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2004 : 07:27:38 AM
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So well put Kim! Kneading your own loaf of bread is special and should be experienced. I remember reading Seventeen magazine also. Wouldn't it be fun to go back over some of those old issues and recipes we tried out as teenage cooking novices?
Time Flies |
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MeadowLark
True Blue Farmgirl
2206 Posts
USA
2206 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2004 : 07:31:54 AM
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Eileen, Keep me posted on your straw/cobb home project! Post lots of pictures too! I am sure it will be beautiful.
Time Flies |
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jpbluesky
True Blue Farmgirl
6066 Posts
Jeannie
Florida
USA
6066 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2004 : 2:59:26 PM
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Kim - I am an Illinois girl, born and bred. When I read your posts, I see so much similarity in your thinking to mine. You are right about kneading bread. It is theraputic.
From one corn fed girl to another -
jpbluesky
Love those big blue skies and wide open spaces. |
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Eileen
True Blue Farmgirl
1199 Posts
Eileen
USA
1199 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2004 : 6:27:47 PM
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When I am kneading my bread I am always looking inward to the beautiful memories I keep to lift me up through the day. I remember my mother kneading bread in huge quantities and wonder at the strength of her hands. I remember watching her put the filling into the pie crusts she made so well and marveled at the beauty she created when she pinched the edges between her thumb and forfinger. Mostly I remember her singing while she worked and dancing with the vaccuum cleaner.
These are memories that lay buried in me for years as I was living as a wounded warrior. The journey to find myself under all the masks that began when I was 38 helped me to uncover these tender memories and change the distressing parts of them into the beauty that I believe was intended. Kneading bread just anchors them and gives me time to live within the love of them.
Eileen
songbird; singing joy to the earth |
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Aunt Jenny
True Blue Farmgirl
11381 Posts
Jenny
middle of
Utah
USA
11381 Posts |
Posted - Oct 23 2004 : 11:11:36 PM
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I bake bread all the time...I try not to buy it very often. I feel incredible guilt when I do.
I agree with putting gluten flour in with the loaves to help them rise. It is especially helpful if you are making a "grainy" bread..which I always do....100% freshly ground whole wheat flour..and I like to add oatmeal, sometimes a little cornmeal, or whatever I have. I use honey and oil in my recipe and sometimes add eggs..if I have alot.
We have a rule with the kids in our home..they can have all the fresh fruit they want and all the homemade bread and fresh goats milk. Anything else they have to ask for. The bread is filling enough that they don't ask for anything after that. The recipe I use makes 3 loaves, which lasts us 2 days if we don't have company..and if I don't give one away.Storebought bread lasts alot longer...no one eats it for a healthy snack.
My grandma taught me how to bake bread when I was about 10. She baked bread every single day I can remember.I always picture her standing at the kitchen counter..and then when she was older sometimes she would sit in "her" chair crocheting too..but always there was the bread baking. I miss her alot.
Jenny in Utah
Bloom where you are planted! |
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deaf-huntress
Farmgirl in Training
25 Posts
Magi
Kendrick
ID
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2004 : 6:50:51 PM
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Eileen,
I was thinking the same thing when I read about the person whose bread was too heavy. I wondered if she was expecting "Wonder Bread", which my kids call marshmellow bread.
I make virtually all of the bread for my family of 10. I grind the wheat myself, which was grown right here on this farm.I do NOT use a bread machine. I would need a half a dozen of them!! But, I confess.... I never use only whole wheat flour. I always add some white flour. We just like it better. Don't know why.
I use the same basic recipe and process for everything from doughnuts to pizza crust. Sweeten it for desserts. Add an egg and extra butter for rich rolls, change the salt to alter the texture for French bread, etc.
It seems to me that making bread takes patience, most of all. It's not something you throw together.
And what makes a good loaf?? It needs to hold together. And melt in your mouth. And the smell needs to make everyone who enters my home feel warm and welcome.
My thoughts on bread.
Magi
It's not what you hear, but how carefully you listen. |
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Idahospud
True Blue Farmgirl
67 Posts
Nikki
Emmett
Idaho
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2004 : 7:43:18 PM
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Goodness, this thread moved quickly!
Thank you, Eileen, for all the tips. I do have some gluten flour and I think I'll give it a try. When I make bread I mix whole wheat flour (we have a wheat grinder) with white, because my experiments with only whole wheat have been disastrous (and yet, I remember my grandma's as SOOOOO good). I admit I'm not patient with cooking (I CAN cook, and make nearly all meals from scratch, but have never loved cooking), and not having the "knack" for this is discouraging. I was once given a bread machine, but the one little (strangely cylindrical) loaf it yeilded was almost insulting and I gave the machine to my sister!
Well, then, farmgirls, how about some recipes? And thanks again, Eileen, for being so precise in your directions and hints. I'm heading out of town this week (to Moscow! Hopefully I'll get a visit in to MaryJanesFarm!), but when I return I'll pull out the pans and give it another go.
--Nikki, who wonders if, like photography, bread baking will be one of those ever-elusive talents that she desires but can't seem to develop! |
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deaf-huntress
Farmgirl in Training
25 Posts
Magi
Kendrick
ID
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2004 : 8:10:52 PM
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No, Nikki... its not elusive. You can do it. Just keep at it til it's right.
Do you own a mixer with dough hooks? It's easiest if you do. If so, I will gladly post my recipe for you.
I don't claim to be anything wonderful, but I make 20 or so loaves a week and it all gets eaten, so I must be doing something right.
HA!
Magi
It's not what you hear, but how carefully you listen. |
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Idahospud
True Blue Farmgirl
67 Posts
Nikki
Emmett
Idaho
USA
67 Posts |
Posted - Oct 24 2004 : 8:37:10 PM
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Yes, Magi--I have a Kitchenaid with a dough hook. I think a whole thread could be devoted to mixers and wheat grinders and why gals like different ones. Anyway, I would sure love your recipe! At 20 loaves a week, I bet you have made bread in your dreams!
I read on another thread that you have adopted all of your children. I would love to hear those stories sometime. |
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deaf-huntress
Farmgirl in Training
25 Posts
Magi
Kendrick
ID
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2004 : 06:53:49 AM
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Adoption is a wonderful thing. All of ours came from abusive backgrounds, so things are always intersting around here.
Of Bread. Now this is about as simple as it gets.
Put all of the following in your mixer with the dough hook in place.
1 Quart of warm water
2 1/2 TBs. Yeast
1 1/2 TBs salt
3 TBs sugar
3 TBs oil
8 cups flour.. (your choice.I always use some white)
Just turn on the mixer and let that baby knead for a good 15-20 minutes, adding more flour until you have that nice, smooth elasticy texture. It should no longer stick to the sides of the bowl. But you don't want it hard either.
Now, roll the dough into an oiled bowl, cover with a bright red cloth (ok, I just like red because it matches my wallpaper) and forget about it for about an hour. Make sure it is in a moderately warm place.
Punch it down, roll it out and form loaves by rolling or folding it so that you have a smooth surface on the top. This makes about 4 loaves. Put a little oil or pam over the top of the loaf and in the bread pan. Pans should be about half full.
Let it sit again. Nice warm spot. Until it has doubled.
Bake at 350 for 30 minutes.
I hope this works out.
Let us know!!!
Magi
It's not what you hear, but how carefully you listen. |
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Eileen
True Blue Farmgirl
1199 Posts
Eileen
USA
1199 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2004 : 08:28:48 AM
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Hi Magi,
Your recipe would be to large for my kitchenaid mixer even with the dough hook so for those ladies who have one of the smaller kitchenaids with the twist on bowl instead of the crankraised bowl the recipe will need to be cut down to 6 cups of flour or you will have dough all over the counters.
Even with my mixer I still hand knead the dough on the bread board just because it is so relaxing and I like the texture better.
After I bought my mixer 25 years ago I saw the larger one and wished I had that one instead. I thought that when It wore out I would get the bigger one to replace it but it just keeps going and going and going! With my children all grown up and living away from here I am down to making bread 2 loaves at a time twice a week. I used to bake about 15 loaves a week and fed a lot of my childrens friends! During the holidays and during our christmas gift show I baked as many loaves a day as my convection oven could keep up with and sold every loaf right out of the oven hot.
One of the favorites of the customers was when I kneaded about 1 cup grated Emanthaler and 1 cup parmesan with about a tablespoon of tobasco into the bread. This cheese bread is still very popular and people sometimes call and ask me to bake it for them for an event. I also get occasional calls for my pies but that is another thread.
Happy baking!
Eileen
songbird; singing joy to the earth |
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deaf-huntress
Farmgirl in Training
25 Posts
Magi
Kendrick
ID
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2004 : 3:24:53 PM
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HA!!!! I am sure you are correct. It would never occur to me to make a smaller batch. That might be too much bread for some families.
Hey, Eilleen, what about a recipe for that cheese bread. I have done it many times, but I am never truly happy with it. Not cheesy enough.
Thanks, Magi
It's not what you hear, but how carefully you listen. |
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cecelia
True Blue Farmgirl
497 Posts
cecelia
new york
USA
497 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2004 : 7:36:43 PM
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Hi Magi, I read that you have adopted kids - mine is also (from overseas) - lots of problems. Are yours from US or somewhere else? Problems?
Cecelia
ce's farm
"Curiosity is one of the forms of feminine bravery" Victor Hugo |
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Aunt Jenny
True Blue Farmgirl
11381 Posts
Jenny
middle of
Utah
USA
11381 Posts |
Posted - Oct 25 2004 : 11:04:36 PM
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The recipe I use for my "everyday" bread (fits in the smaller kitchen aid with screw on bowl..I have had mine for more than 15 years) follows:
Bread
2 1/2 cups warm water (or milk if you have lots)
2 Tbsp dry yeast
1/2 cup oil
1/2 cup honey
1 Tbsp salt
3 or 4 eggs if you have lots (optional)
I put the water and yeast in the mixer with the paddle and turn on just to mix. Then after it gets foamy (let it sit a few minutes) add the salt, honey and oil (I use melted butter instead sometimes) and mix. Then add eggs if you are using them. Add flour gradually until thick. Switch to dough hook and add more flour and let mix for 10 min. at least....and then put in buttered bowl with GREEN cloth..haha and let rise until doubled in bulk..takes nearly an hour in my kitchen..and then divide into three loaves or make some into rolls. Cover and let rise again in buttered pans. Bake at 350 for about 45 min. You will know it is done when it smells heavenly.
my youngest four kids are adopted too. We are getting another in the next two weeks (7 year old boy) Ours are all from the US. We will have 4 still at home at that point. I think that will be it. (we said that two kids ago though, so who knows)Ours all come from abusive backgrounds too.
Jenny in Utah
Bloom where you are planted! |
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Farm Kitchen: Bread Baking, What makes a good loaf? |
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Bread Baking, What makes a good loaf?
