| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| happymama58 |
Posted - Apr 05 2006 : 5:14:44 PM
Reading Rabbithorn's post about using cloth only has helped me crystallize a question that's been circulating in my head. I hope I can make sense of what I mean, so please bear with me. And Rabbithorn, please know I'm not questioning you or your methods. I'm just trying to make sense of all this and put it in a way I can get my head around it all.
Okay, if a person quits using paper towels, etc., because of the price, the landfill issues, and the ecology (factories producing them emit pollution), they'd use cloth instead, right? If so, instead of throwing the papers away or, hopefully, recycling them, they have to be washed. Washing means soap & water. If you wash them in the machine, that takes electricity. Most laundry detergents (and even if you make your own, the contents like Fels Naptha or whatever it's called, is bought and was made somewhere) is made in factories, the electricity must be produced, etc.
What I'm wondering is, at what point do you know which alternative is more economical, ecological, etc?
I remember reading in either Cheapskate Monthly or Tightwad Gazette, that there's a way to figure these things out. But I'm math imparied, and the money issue isn't the only part. It's the environment, etc., too. So when *do* you know which is the best way -- the natural or the manufactured?
I only used the idea of paper towels because it came to mind first, but there are other similar issues.
Some people search for happiness; others create it.
http://happymama58.typepad.com/my_weblog/ |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| LJRphoto |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 8:40:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by rabbithorns
Wouldn't that mean our kids would always be getting UTIs since we diaper them in cloth diapers? My daughter never had a UTI and she used to avoid being changed after pooping and she'd sit all over it....used to drive me nuts. Also, like with cloth diapers, you can flush the toilet and "rinse" the cloth while holding it. Maybe for some folks who are prone to infections, it's not a good idea, but I still advocate for some other method besides paper. The most common one in pioneer days was using yellow dock leaves. I've thought of that, but my climate doesn't treat it well (or I'd be growing my own TP).
Children, especially girls, often do get urinary tract infections from sitting in dirty diapers. However, as women get older they are more prone to infections. The reason i was given is that the sphincter in the urethra "relaxes" as we get older allowing bacteria to move in more easily.
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." -Mark Twain
http://ljrenterprises.blogspot.com/ |
| rabbithorns |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 4:45:09 PM
I saw some of the Colonial House series but toally missed Frontier House and that's the one I really wished I could have participated in (I read an article about it). Always wanted to be Laura Ingalls when I grew up! Maybe my library has Frontier House. I'll check it out. |
| Juliekay |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 11:27:16 AM
You know Rabbit, (you don't mind if I call you Rabbit do you? It just a bit quicker than the full name), I really can't remember every detail. Maybe if you rented it or could find a discussion forum about it on the net you could find out. But I definitely remember that each person had their own cloth and was responsible for rinsing it out each time. I think it was a jug of water and a bar of soap in the outhouse.
Julie |
| rabbithorns |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 09:27:18 AM
Oh, THANK YOU! I really prefer the one cloth per person and wash it out each time. Otherwise I have to have a stack of clean clothes per person and a bin in each bathroom for dirty. Then what if we run out during the week....Now it's just a matter of not wasting water rinsing them out, AND not contaminating a crock of washing water. Hmmm....any more info from Frontier House on that?
|
| sonflowergurl |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 07:19:55 AM
LOL, I haven't read this thread in awhile... interesting conversation, very informative!
Katee
The end will justify the pain it took to get us here.
"Looking Toward the Son"---- http://sonflowergirl731.blogspot.com
|
| happymama58 |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 07:01:11 AM
To tell you the truth, I had never thought about what the settlers used for tp until this thread, *and* I never thought it would be this interesting! It's amazing, though, how many new & interesting things I'm learning about and exploring.
Some people search for happiness; others create it.
http://happymama58.typepad.com/my_weblog/ |
| Juliekay |
Posted - Apr 14 2006 : 05:31:49 AM
On Frontier House, the frontier experts said that the little cloth method was the one to use. Each person had their own cloth on a peg in the outhouse. I can't remember if they used a new one each time though. I rather think they washed it out with soap and water after each use and hung it back up to dry for the next time. |
| Amie C. |
Posted - Apr 13 2006 : 08:59:22 AM
This is turning into a fascinationg discussion. At the risk of going off topic, I used to work at a colonial era living history museum and I was told by the staff there that there is no documentation of what colonial Americans used for tp. Simply, no one left any written record that mentioned it. There was plenty of speculation, of course, and all of the methods you've mentioned here were candidates. Since you guys seem to be more expert in this than the staff at the museum, anyone ever seen any definitive research on colonial wiping methods?
At any rate, if this message board somehow survives archivally, historians of the future will have plenty of info on our toilet habits! |
| rabbithorns |
Posted - Apr 13 2006 : 08:38:45 AM
Lots of my friends do the India thing. I hear lots about the squatting holes. Alaska was pretty much like that, too, as we had a 2-hole outhouse. But if we'd used water for cleaning we'd have literally frozen our you-know-whats off.
I take a new cloth each time I use the toilet. It's just a 6x6 square of old t-shirt folded in half and sewn together. Then the used one goes in a tin bucket with a lid. Once or twice a week, I wash them in hot water and dry them in full sun to disinfect. I might start adding a vinegar rinse - good idea. They never smell or anything. And the sun here really does quite the job! Lavendar also disinfects. Maybe I'll do a second rinse with a drop of that to sweeten the experience! |
| Juliekay |
Posted - Apr 13 2006 : 07:25:37 AM
Rabbithorns,
Do you use a new cloth after each time you go to the bathroom? After spending time in India that seems a lot better than the water bucket and ladle method of cleaning oneself. The left hand is for removing the gunk while your right hand pours the water. You squat over the hole in the floor while you do it. So this method is comparitively nice, at least to me.
If a person were worried about germs couldn't they do a rinse of the cloths in vinegar for a final rinse?
|
| rabbithorns |
Posted - Apr 12 2006 : 10:23:13 PM
Wouldn't that mean our kids would always be getting UTIs since we diaper them in cloth diapers? My daughter never had a UTI and she used to avoid being changed after pooping and she'd sit all over it....used to drive me nuts. Also, like with cloth diapers, you can flush the toilet and "rinse" the cloth while holding it. Maybe for some folks who are prone to infections, it's not a good idea, but I still advocate for some other method besides paper. The most common one in pioneer days was using yellow dock leaves. I've thought of that, but my climate doesn't treat it well (or I'd be growing my own TP). |
| CityCat |
Posted - Apr 12 2006 : 10:03:43 PM
I know that urine is inherently sterile. I'm concerned with wiping my bits with cloth tp that has previously been used to clean "back there". That would definitely help to facilitate the transmission of bacteria, and potentially start a urinary tract infection, more likely in women than in men (the length of the urethra is key here). So, do you have different cloth tp designated for when you pee or poo? That's the only way I can see that bacterial transmission could be limited. -Cat
ps. Urine is not recommended for jellyfish stings. Experts recommend carefully scraping off any tentacles that have adhered to the skin and treating the sting with vinegar, baking soda, or ice packs. The myth is that the ammonia in urine is supposed to neutralize the nematocysts (stinging bits of a jellyfish), but it really doesn't do even an adequate job. |
| rabbithorns |
Posted - Apr 11 2006 : 5:08:19 PM
It's still more ecological to handwash if you don't keep the water running and just use 2-3 gallons of water total. Plus my water heater is set around 110 and I only use hot water for the wash and not the rinses. A dishwasher is never going to match that water and heater use...(says the girl who hauled water in Alaska and knows exactly how much water is absolutely necessary to wash dishes  ). I saw no reason to change the way I did dishes just because we moved back to America and had a faucet....It's still 3 tubs (now 2 small sinks and a tub) one for wash and 2 for rinse. |
| happymama58 |
Posted - Apr 11 2006 : 2:11:01 PM
Well, shoot! The dishwasher posts have blown my idea of not putting a dishwasher in the new house. Dh and the kids want one, but I didn't and was saying that it would be more ecological to hand-wash. Now I'll have to share what I've learned here and tell them they win -- we'll get a dishwasher.
Oh well, I'd rather make an informed decision than a wrong one. I really am learning so much from this thread and appreciate all the dialogue here. Keep it coming -- I'm taking tons of notes.
Some people search for happiness; others create it.
http://happymama58.typepad.com/my_weblog/ |
| sonflowergurl |
Posted - Apr 11 2006 : 12:56:19 PM
Good info Rebecca! I can use quite a lot of water when handwashing dishes some days. Our "next" place WILL have a dishwasher! I do plan to make sure my appliances all have the "energy star" on them if I have a say.
Now if there were just an easy AND inexpensive way to convert older cars to using biofuels...
Katee
The end will justify the pain it took to get us here.
"Looking Toward the Son"---- http://sonflowergirl731.blogspot.com
|
| _Rebecca_ |
Posted - Apr 11 2006 : 12:45:43 PM
On dishwashers:
Most of the energy used by dishwashers is actually the energy required for heating the water they consume. An efficient dishwasher uses less water to do the job. Virtually all dishwashers available today use booster heaters to further heat the water supplied by the water heater to the higher temperatures required for dishwashing, so you can reduce the temperature of your water heater to 120° for additional energy savings. All of the models in our list exceed the ENERGY STAR requirements and are at least 45% more efficient than the federal minimum standard. Many of the newer models also use significantly less water—as much as one-half less—than hand washing.
Many of the dishwashers on the market today incorporate soil-sensors to adjust water use depending on how dirty the dishes are in each load washed. A new test procedure has been adopted to better estimate the energy consumption of soil-sensing dishwasher models. As a result, the data presented here and on updated EnergyGuide labels allows for more accurate comparisons among models.
Recent studies demonstrate that most new dishwashers do a great job cleaning even the dirtiest dishes without pre-rinsing. So give yourself a break and skip the unnecessary step of pre-rinsing—you'll save money along with precious water, energy, and time.
from the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy
http://www.aceee.org/consumerguide/topdish.htm
.·:*¨¨* :·.Rebecca.·:*¨¨* :·.
Wife of Jonathan, Mother of Joel, Caitlyn, Elia |
| sonflowergurl |
Posted - Apr 11 2006 : 10:32:37 AM
quote:
Originally posted by rabbithorns
BTW, there's nothing inherently toxic in urine. - ' "If you don't have any urinary infections, urine is aseptic. It doesn't contain any bad bugs," says Toni Steer of the Medical Research Council Human Nutrition Unit in Cambridge. ' Aseptic means free of living germs.
LOL, that's why they peed on jelly fish stings on "Friends".  hehe
Katee
The end will justify the pain it took to get us here.
"Looking Toward the Son"---- http://sonflowergirl731.blogspot.com
|
| rabbithorns |
Posted - Apr 11 2006 : 09:03:51 AM
I do not use bleach on the cloth tp only because I made them from old tie-dyed t-shirts. But I was thinking of buying some birdseye (diaper fabric) and making some from that so they can be easily bleached. Problem with that is: I don't want to throw bleach into the environment. I do dry the cloths in full sun (no shortage of that in Arizona) and that's supposed to kill stuff anyway.
BTW, there's nothing inherently toxic in urine. - ' "If you don't have any urinary infections, urine is aseptic. It doesn't contain any bad bugs," says Toni Steer of the Medical Research Council Human Nutrition Unit in Cambridge. ' Aseptic means free of living germs. |
| CityCat |
Posted - Apr 10 2006 : 9:16:22 PM
I know not everyone is a biology geek, but here goes...
Bacteria have ways to survive dessication. They create spores, and can live for hundreds of years that way in basically suspended animation. Bacillus bacteria don't normally produce spores, but E. coli, and Streptococcus bacteria can produce spores.
Now, I'm not trying to scare ya, but it's pure ignorance to think that bacteria aren't there because the plates or whatever are dry.
BUT if you are healthy, your immune system is in good working order and remains that way, the likelihood of getting ill are low.
And I have problems with the use of cloth tp due to my having taken numerous microbiology courses. Do you at least use bleach? All I can envision are constant urinary tract infections... (sorry... kinda graphic...)
Just had to add my 2 cents -Cat |
| sqrl |
Posted - Apr 10 2006 : 11:48:52 AM
yeah Beth I hear ya! At work I have a place for all the white office paper we get in faxes and other stuff. I use this paper as scrap and try to print on the back. But it's so much paper. Just the other day I was thinking as I was loading three huge boxes of recycling inthe car why am I even doing this when I leave they're not going to recycyle...But I just can't throw it away, it makes me sick to think of all this stuff wasted... So I just do what I can for now at least.
Blessed Be
www.sqrlbee.com
www.smallsqrl.blogspot.com
|
| sonflowergurl |
Posted - Apr 08 2006 : 9:16:17 PM
Beth, I love the idea of having all of the school info online, and maybe even sending it out via email. The only problem with this is that even though "most" students have a computer at home, not every one does. It would be difficult to give a non-computer student a piece of paper to take home, and not be singled out by it. I am an instructional assistant at my school, and as often as possible, I make double-sided copies for the teachers to help save on paper. It is ridiculous how much paper is wasted at schools, that's true. At least at our school, we have recycling bins for paper products, so we know it's being recycled. (Along with cardboard, newspapers, styrofoam lunch trays, milk cartons, cellphones, ink cartridges, and batteries---all of the "recycling programs" our school participates in.)
Looking Toward the Son,
Katee
The end will justify the pain it took to get us here. |
| Rebekka Mae |
Posted - Apr 08 2006 : 5:38:33 PM
When I researched the cloth diaper issue it became clear that buying some gently used diapers and washing them was far better than putting disposables into a landfill (I only do an extra load or two per week and my daughters booty never gets red in cloth like in the disposables). Using disposables is such a huge expense...Plus- did you know that you must flush poop from your disposables or you are putting human waste into the landfill? An often overlooked step that not many I know ever take the time for. I bought all gently used for my first baby and now that we are pregnant with the second they will all work again. When I need to use disposables I buy seventh generation.
This same logical falls to cloth napkins, I buy them at thrift stores or make them out of fabric leftovers- so no special production or shipping just for me- we reuse them if they are not dirty and hang them to dry to save energy (I do machine dry the diapers so they are not too crisp on baby's behind). They are also less wrinkled because of this and so much more satisfying to use than paper.
Just try to buy used and then reuse whatever you can....
We are all just doing our best to respect the planet and our family budgets, it is nice to share all these ideas!
Rebekka
|
| celebrate2727 |
Posted - Apr 08 2006 : 4:53:58 PM
hey sqrl- have you ever thought about how much paper a school uses. i get more handouts from my kids and most times it's duplicate information. i know that i get a discount for getting an e-bill from sprint instead of a paper one. would be nice if schools did this. plus i'd be able to find the info i need instead of having the kids remember to give the sheet of paper to me in the first place. plus imagine what it would save $$ wise for the school district.
blessings
betht
Dreaming of Friday Night Lights
|
| rabbithorns |
Posted - Apr 08 2006 : 11:07:23 AM
I had no idea salmonella can survive even if the infected surface is dry. I wouldn't think it's much of a problem for vegetarians unless they also eat eggs, right? |
| LJRphoto |
Posted - Apr 07 2006 : 9:23:23 PM
i'd like to add something on the dishwasher for Patti. Since you would be starting fresh with a brand new dishwasher, they do make very efficient dishwashers now that only use 5 gallons of water and are also more energy efficient otherwise if you want a dishwasher.
Also, salmonella can live on a dry surface for at least 24 hours (other germs can live there for several hours). i too think that we, as a society, are obsessed with the germ free thing, but i like anything that my family is going to eat off of washed in HOT, soapy water.
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." -Mark Twain
http://ljrenterprises.blogspot.com/ |
|
|
