| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| faithymom |
Posted - Jan 08 2007 : 09:14:12 AM
*moved from Family Matters to Parenting forum*
Hello, everyone.
I have a 3yo daughter and she has emotional breakdown at least once a day...usually more.
This morning she was screaming and crying because daddy went to work.
He asked her if she wanted a hug and kiss good-bye and she turned her head away and said nothing...of course, when he walked out the door, she immediately changed her mind and began her screaming, crying fit... She does this "I'm pissed that you didn't give me what I told you I didn't want" routine regularly, and has for a long time.
I'm about at the end of my rope, and besides taking to heart the stereotype of the 'fickle woman', I don't know what to do.
Any help would be appreciated.
Faith
"All television is educational television. The only question is, what is it teaching?"-Fmr. FCC Commissioner Nicholas Johnson |
| 24 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| theonlygirl |
Posted - Feb 21 2007 : 8:38:06 PM
I recommend www.handinhandparenting.org. They have pamphlets you can purchase. These were a life saver for me. My son went through terrible fits at three and he was a puker so he would get so upset and throw up. We tried many parenting books and finally I called hysterically crying to my Mom (while my 3 year old was hysterically crying too) and she called a good friend of hers who is a child psychologist. She sent me these pamphlets and she also said it is fine and although hard to deal with it is fairly normal behavior- some kids are more external with their emotions and some are more internal. We figured out my son was having anger issues with me for having a baby. She also said that at three they are trying to figure out who they are as people, they are transitioning from being a sweet baby and always with Mom or Dad to taking on more responsibility for themselves (getting dressed, potty training, being a big boy, etc)
It wasn't the easiest thing to do to get through, but I had to stay with him when he had his fits and even if he slammed his door I just sat outside. I had been doing the opposite, putting him in his room or leaving the room because I just didn't know what to do and I was so overwhelmed with a new baby and this new behavior. Anyway the pamphlets were so much help.
I hope things are working out!
Christi
the only girl - in a house full of boys
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| oceanfarmgirl |
Posted - Feb 12 2007 : 2:32:31 PM
I think this is where Rebecca and I split hairs. IMO, especially with a child that MIGHT have sensory integration issues, there might be a problem OTHER than a non submisive spirit. I agree that in the case of a defiant child, a parent MUST draw a line. However. This is also where the idea of picking your battles comes into mind. In the case of our original poster, there have been lines drawn, and the results have been the same. I would submit that this suggests that there are underlying issues that should be looked into. IMO, being crabby does not mean that a child is being defiant. It means that they might need a nap, or that they aren't yet able to process their emotion in a socially acceptable way. Not allowing simple choices just because a child is not cheery or submisive is missing the point. Sometimes, a little thing like two "choices" (which aren't always even a REAL choice, but rather two options that will give you the adult the outcome you need, and your child the chance to feel like a part of the team) can diffuse a situation where your child is feeling powerless, or overwhelmed. I think that by allowing my children choices and offering them freedom WITHIN my boundries, I personally, am better able to have two way communication and better cooperation from my children. Don't get me wrong. There are many times when they DON'T have any say, and they aren't always happy about that. But in my personal experience both as a childcare professional, and as a mother, I have seen positive and healthy growth when choices are allowed. Not only when things are running smoothly, (ie" kids are behaving and obeying) but also when I need to calm and smooth out feelings.
rachel
See what I'm up to on my blog... http://minetothine.blogspot.com
OR check out my gardening activities at http://oceanfarmgirlsgarden.blogspot.com |
| _Rebecca_ |
Posted - Feb 12 2007 : 1:55:38 PM
Yes. True, but they get to choose when they have a submissive spirit, not when they are being crabby etc. In fact, the more they obey and respect the more freedoms they should be allowed. Obedience brings blessings.
.·:*¨¨* :·.Rebecca.·:*¨¨* :·.
Wife of Jonathan, Mother of Joel, Caitlyn, Elia, Nathanael |
| UrbanChick |
Posted - Feb 11 2007 : 05:18:02 AM
The "out of sync child" is a great book. I have that one and the one called "the out of sync child has fun". Both are great for kids with sensory issues. I also have the Explosive Child, I think it's better suited for kids that are a little older...like school age but it helps you understand where they are coming from and where the frustration comes from. Helps you think on their terms so you can a better control of a situation before it gets out of hand. I think Love and Logic is a great program...I'm waiting to get some free time so I can attend a class about it. So far I'm loving the books that I have on it. It works most of the time, but it's hard to talk to a child that doesn't understand you or your social cues. So I have to be patient and pick and choose moments with her. Good luck, we are all here to support you and help you with those tough moments.
"Courage dosen't always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying: I will try again tomorrow." |
| oceanfarmgirl |
Posted - Feb 10 2007 : 3:57:11 PM
I agree with Rebecca to a point. I think that offering choices WITHIN your parental boundaries should be the way to go. If you raise a child unable to make choices as a child, then you raise a child unable to make choices as an adult. Providing your child with choices within a boundary is a way to train them in the ways that YOU want, and also to give your child practice at making choices on their own. Not asking a child what they want makes them feel powerless. Feeling powerless leaves very little room for becoming the adult I would think you want your child to be. You can be an authority figure AND provide your child with safe and acceptable choices.
See what I'm up to on my blog... http://minetothine.blogspot.com
OR check out my gardening activities at http://oceanfarmgirlsgarden.blogspot.com |
| _Rebecca_ |
Posted - Feb 10 2007 : 1:42:38 PM
You have to understand that your husband asked your daughter for permission to leave her. Treat the child like a child and you will see better behavior. Do not strengthen her will or you will regret it. Dad doesn't need the child's validation. That makes your daughter insecure and then you get crabby behavior towards him.
Explain to your daughter how she is to behave as dad leaves for work. Remind her of it a few times the night before. Example, "Tomorrow when daddy leaves for work he kisses and hugs mommy and he gives you a kiss and hug." Then tell her what she should not do, cry, ignore dad, etc. Misbehaving will bring a consequence.
You have to communicate what your expecations are and also expect good behavior. Otherwise you get what you get.
Apply this to other situations in the home. You are the parents. You don't ask your what she wants, you direct her. Children feel more secure when the parents are in control. If the parents are not authority figures, the child feels insecure. It isn't being mean to be in control of a child, it's part of the job.
HTH,
.·:*¨¨* :·.Rebecca.·:*¨¨* :·.
Wife of Jonathan, Mother of Joel, Caitlyn, Elia, Nathanael |
| oceanfarmgirl |
Posted - Feb 09 2007 : 7:46:27 PM
Faith,
Love and Logic is a GREAT class... I hope you get as much out of it as I did! I used to be an Asst. Director of a DayCare/Preschool before moving to the coast. So I would like to offer a few ideas, and a really good book. Because you say that your daughter has been fussy since day one, I'd like to suggest that she may has sensory integration issues. A WONDERFUL book about this is called The Out of Sync Child. I recomend it to ALL parents. Not just those looking for ideas and answers! It really explains alot of things about how children learn through their senses, and how if one or more of their abilities to process sensoryinput is not "working" to it's fullest, things can get very hard very fast for that child, and create "side effects" like your daughters loss of control.
I like to also suggest that you offer your daughter choices, for example, when daddy leaves, tell her-
Daddy is leaving, do you want to give him a hug, or a kiss? You choose.
If she refuses to choose, (which I am betting she will at first) then you give her a time limit.
I'm going to count to five. If you don't choose before five, daddy will have to leave, and you can hug him when he gets home.
Giving her a "say" might help a lot. Also making the choices limited help. Don't offer three or four choices. Give two. Two that YOU want, and then if she doesn't choose, give a consequence (try to make it a natural one, like daddy will leave without a hug) Give her a chance to redeem herself, (you can hug daddy when he gets home) and if you have to choose for her. As in the choice to pick the pink socks or the blue ones... (if you don't choose, I will choose for you) If she throws a fit, remind her of her chance for redemption, (you can hug daddy when he comes home) Acknowlege her frustrations, saddness, etc. Don't patronize. (I know you are sad, BUT) Just state the emotion. I try to use emotions OTHER than mad when I can, because we use mad as a blanket for so many emotions, and I try to teach my kids that there are others. So I might say to your daughter. You seem Frustrated. Then, if she continues to throw a fit, I might say, You can be fristrated, but you can't scream. Then I might remove her, and say You can be frustrated here. When you are done, maybe you can draw a picture about it. Just a few ideas. Remember too, that children experience emotion at a MUCH stronger level than we adults do, and often, they don't know HOW to deal with them. A little bit of understanding can go a long way.
rachel
See what I'm up to on my blog... http://minetothine.blogspot.com
OR check out my gardening activities at http://oceanfarmgirlsgarden.blogspot.com |
| faithymom |
Posted - Jan 14 2007 : 04:09:36 AM
Thanks, Ayako. Sometimes the most helpful thing to hear is "You're not alone."
I am starting a Love and Logic class next week through my 5th graders school.
I'm excited and I've heard some great things about it.
I'm hoping it has some specific topics for dealing with my 'difficult' children...yes, I have 2 of them!
Faith
"All television is educational television. The only question is, what is it teaching?"-Fmr. FCC Commissioner Nicholas Johnson |
| UrbanChick |
Posted - Jan 13 2007 : 9:49:42 PM
I have a daughter that is a crier and an occasional screamer. She is autistic and has multiple food allergies as well. When she gets stressed she will self mutilate and scratch her hands, legs and arms till they bleed. We go to a behavorist at the local childrens hospital and they recommended a book "Parenting with Love and Logic" It has helped us alot. She isn't very verbal, she's 4 years old, and she can't understand a whole lot of reasoning but she does understand cause and effect very well. She we are trying to get her to understand that if she does do something that the effect will not be very helpful to her. We do alot of diversions to avoid the bad behavior before it happens. Example: Dad leaves for work and she is crying that she wants him home. I say:"Oh that's sad daddy is working and not playing with us right now...but he'll be back later. Let's draw him a picture so when he gets home we can show him we were thinking about him today." Sometimes those diversions work; sometimes not. I don't always have the answer and it's tiring working with an autistic child that can't understand you but all I can say is we were all in the same boat with you at one time or another and some of us still are. Just keep your chin up and know you are doing the best you can.
"Courage dosen't always roar. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying: I will try again tomorrow." |
| mommom |
Posted - Jan 10 2007 : 08:50:53 AM
Trying to talk calmly and expressively to a two or three year old never worked for me. I raised four and no-one got hurt. If I heard a scuffle or screaming, I was like Holly's mom. I would go check out the situation and if no-one had any broken bones or blood coming out of any crevice, I told them to cut it out and left them where they were. I think if the child sees that they are upsetting us, then they zero in on that one point and let us have it even more. I now have a 2 year old grandson living with me and he, too, is putting me through my paces each and every day. Let's face it...I'm a lot older now. I find that if I look at him and say every time, "What did Mommom say?" he knows exactly what I mean. Another thing I think a lot of parents don't do anymore is to have "the look." I've always been able to look at my kids right in their eyes and they know what I"m telling them! Still works. Please don't let your little one tell you what she's doing or not doing. They're actually a lot happier if they know they have boundaries and rules to live by. They need to know that they are important to us but not the most important person in the home. Everyone is important and needs to be treated with kindness and love. Respect is one of my favorite things, too. Hang in there, mom. She'll be a teenager before you know it and with that comes a whole other chapter! Hugs, Susan |
| faithymom |
Posted - Jan 09 2007 : 9:52:34 PM
That's great advice, Robin.
and, yes, hours...I don't FEEL like I'm exagerrating, but maybe I am... I guess that's why I feel like the time-outs aren't working...she'll just sit inthere for a LONG time screaming...even though I don't give in or give attention for the fits...
I like the 'change your strategy' approach.
Thank you everyone for your sympathy, sharing your struggles and your advice. I really appreciate it.
Faiht
"All television is educational television. The only question is, what is it teaching?"-Fmr. FCC Commissioner Nicholas Johnson |
| tziporra |
Posted - Jan 09 2007 : 5:23:56 PM
Hey there, I'm right in it with you! I've got a three too, and she plays this same game (I don't want it until I can't have it -- especially with kisses bye-bye, and at night-night time).
Depending on the situation, I'll do both leaving her alone for her tantrum in a special "tantrum place" (the bathroom, her baby brother's playpen) or the toddler whisperer trick mentioned here by others. She'll scream for a LONG time sometimes (hours, anyone?), but luckily I have a high tolerance for screaming. In the end it doesn't hurt anyone for her to have a long tantrum, her or me or the other children.
It's all so individual -- your parenting and her response. You might do one technique one time and another technique another time. I think that's great.
It helps me to remember when I'm in the middle of three screaming children that I'm in the middle of the most trying circumstances: I'm building love relationships where I'm the only adult. And I have a hard enough time navigating those love relationships with two "mature" parties!
So while I agree with everyone here that it's vital not to give in to a tantrum once you've taken a stand, I also think there is room for not taking stands in the first place on occasion. There are so many teachable moments in this lifetime that it's not important to take advantage of every single one of them.
Of course, we have structured our life so that the stuff we feel like we /can't/ give in on isn't even an option, so there is room to give in gracefully in some areas. For instance - if my three asks nicely for a candy I'll go ahead and give her a piece. If I didn't want her to have the candy at all I'd remove it from the house to avoid the power struggle. And I suppose that if she continually asked for candy, I'd have to take that road. On the other hand, bedtime is a firm stand, and the number of tantrums, stalling, or other bad behavior isn't going to make a difference in my stand.
Hope this helps.
Robin
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| faithymom |
Posted - Jan 09 2007 : 1:07:24 PM
Sounds interesting.
I'll check at the library.
"All television is educational television. The only question is, what is it teaching?"-Fmr. FCC Commissioner Nicholas Johnson |
| Zahara |
Posted - Jan 09 2007 : 12:20:45 PM
recommend the following book:
How to Behave So Your Children Will, Too!
by Sal Severe
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| Alee |
Posted - Jan 09 2007 : 10:27:33 AM
When I was little (up until about 8th grade) I had horrible food allergies. I was allergic to _everything_. Seriously. Citrus, all dairy products and deriviatives, corn, barley, wheat, food dyes, preservatives, melons, berries, all nuts- the list could go on forever. Anyway- I did not break out in rashes or anything but my cheeks would get flushed like they do when I get really angry and I would have uncontrollable rage. Sometimes this would come out in screaming fits or temper tantrums or just snotty behavior. Luckily my parents found out what was going on fairly quickly and were able to help me manage through until they became so microscopic that I no longer have any dietary restrictions.
Also- just another though- whenever one of us children were having a temper tantrum (not medically induced of course) my mom would make sure we weren't hurting ourselves or damaging the house in any way and then would walk away. Sometimes she would even laugh at us. I only can remember throwing one real temper tantrum- my mom came in checked on me and then just shut the door and walked away. Since I did not recieve any kind of input from her- I learned that throwing a temper tantrum wouldn't give me the attention I was trying to get.
I'm not saying that method works for everyone- but it certainly did for my sisters and I.
I hope that you find a way with your daughter :)
Alee |
| faithymom |
Posted - Jan 08 2007 : 7:39:49 PM
Pattern? You mean besides every day? LOL
She apparently has a particularly low threshold for not getting what she wants...ha ha
No, I haven't noticed a pattern, but I honestly haven't been looking for one...
I will take note of that, thanks.
"All television is educational television. The only question is, what is it teaching?"-Fmr. FCC Commissioner Nicholas Johnson |
| ponyexpress |
Posted - Jan 08 2007 : 6:37:47 PM
You know, I've been re-reading these posts and I've been wondering. You said she has been a screamer from day one and that the "traditional" approaches to behavior management haven't worked. I wonder if there is something other than just being difficult. I'm not sure what being a "high needs child" involves, as suggested by Melanie, but maybe your daughter has a particularly low threshold for certain triggers that you haven't yet been able to identify.
My step-daughter had a particularly difficult pre-adolescence. I didn't "inherit" her until she was 9, but there would be some pretty serious blow-ups, mainly between she and her mom, but then it would migrate over to our house. She was a premature child, although by today's standards, she was a good weight at 3.5 pounds. But she had some issues and continues to this day in some respects. She responded poorly to some textures, both in clothing and food. She did not, and does, handle change very well. The things that some children would worry about...what if I become sick in class, what if I have to go to the bathroom on the bus...she would blow up to epic proportions. She was anxious, but couldn't put into words what she was feeling. It could possibly be an allergy to a food, who knows?
Have you been able to see any pattern to her outbursts?
I'd get a face lift - but then it wouldn't match my body! |
| faithymom |
Posted - Jan 08 2007 : 5:47:35 PM
Yes, I have done the removal from everyone... it didn't help...and I don't mean I tried it once, I mean I have been doing this for at least a full year without effect... she will just carry on forever... but I don't let her do it in front of everyone...
Now I'd just like it to stop...
Honestly, if you had asked me after #1 I would have talked of all these 'methods' and strategies that work so well....
After these last 2, I have no answers for anyone except this: Do what you know is right in the situation and keep doing it, even if after 5,000 times you don't get the results you're looking for...
Yes, Hazard pay...ROFL... Should this be set aside for the padded room after they're grown?
"All television is educational television. The only question is, what is it teaching?"-Fmr. FCC Commissioner Nicholas Johnson |
| ponyexpress |
Posted - Jan 08 2007 : 2:07:39 PM
It's been twenty years or so since I dealt with this, but I do agree that three was so much more difficult than two. I didn't have a screamer, but I had an independent thinker, a challenger....hands on the hips, I can do it myself, my way is better, etc etc. I do remember than when temper tantrums did occur, Bramble's tactic worked pretty well. If you talk softly, even whisper in their ear, they have to quiet down to hear what you are saying. And if what you are saying is positive and affirming, that may be an incentive to quiet down more quickly. He's grown into a wonderful young man, who thinks for himself and always seems to land on his feet. So, it does get better!
Holly's comments are on target. There should be a clear understanding of what your expectations are concerning appropriate behavior and consequences when the child acts outside of those expectations. A consequence could be simply removing them from the family activity - time out in another room/place. If there is no audience, it defeats the purpose of the tantrum. And there should be consistency in the application of rewards/consequences. Children need some structure and need to know what to expect. They will put their toes to the line, even cross the line, to see if you will call them on it.
Parenting is such a difficult job, but ultimately the most rewarding. I do, however, believe there should be hazard pay for those in the front lines!
I'd get a face lift - but then it wouldn't match my body! |
| ArmyWifey |
Posted - Jan 08 2007 : 1:10:08 PM
Well I agree about not giving in - but it really isn't necessary to reason with a three year old. Mommy said so should be good enough. Also taking things away if she throws fits.......ie toy, book, dolly, etc. works well for some children. If she doesn't like it tough, she needs to learn that you can't get what you want by screaming or by manipulation -- which is what she's doing. I used to try and reason with my little ones but by number four had learned/decided that it wasn't worth it. You don't act that way period and if you do these are the consequences. My children didn't listen when they were in the middle of it, but later when they had calmed down a bit we would talk about how we behave -- how does God want us to respond, etc and set consequences then the next time it happens follow though. Which I know, sounds easier than it is! But if you can teach her this at three it will smooth out some future bumps..........
Beleive me I wish I would have been firmer with my eldest boy when he was that age instead of reasoning, trying to be positive, etc. It would have made life a lot easier with Mr. Stubborn/ADHD! I gave in to much because it was easier.
Best to you!
Holly
As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord!
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| faithymom |
Posted - Jan 08 2007 : 11:50:49 AM
Yes, 3 years is so much worse than 2...
I sat down after she woke up again and had a chat with her about 'living with your choices' and demonstrated with some coins and talked to her about getting mad for getting what she wanted... I'm sure I'll do it quite a few more times, but I did get her to admit it was HER decision...
<sigh> I am not really too surprised that she acts like this...she's been a screamer from day 1...no fussing for my girl, she has always started with the 'panic' cry...
I am glad I made it this far! I was having the hardest time when she was smaller and screaming all the time and my son was in the worst of his defiance...I was SO ready to RUN AWAY!!!
So, thanks for your advice (and sympathy)... It's easy to forget that this too, shall pass...
And I now have more understanding toward ALL parents, but especially the parents of The Difficult Child (a GREAT book by Stanley Turecki)
...through pain comes growth!
-Faith
PS, I'll take just a sec to laud my oldest, who was(is) mellow and quiet and gave me absolutely no preparation for the other 2...
I love them all
"All television is educational television. The only question is, what is it teaching?"-Fmr. FCC Commissioner Nicholas Johnson |
| lamamama |
Posted - Jan 08 2007 : 10:45:50 AM
Take courage, Faith!
I know it is so difficult at times. I think Bramble said it quite well, & I agree with her. I would only add that perhaps your daughter is one of the children sometimes referred to as "a high needs child." My second boy was most definitely one of those dear children! I can laugh about it now (he is 11), but the first 2-3 years were often so hard. Dr. William Sears wrote a wonderful book about high needs kids. I'm not sure of the title anymore, but I think it does have the term "high needs" in there somewhere. Since Dr. Sears has a website, it shouldn't be too dificult to get the titile. I strongly urge you to buy a copy. It will save you a lot of struggle.
Good luck!! |
| vintagechica |
Posted - Jan 08 2007 : 10:38:24 AM
Faith, hang in there. I think they all go through this at one point or another. I have two 4 year olds and I swear 3 was much worse than 2 ever was. Both of my older two went through this (at different times thank the Lord!) and now Im holding my breath for the little one to start as he is 21 months now.
The only advice I have is to hold your ground and eventually she will understand that like bramble said, she needs to use her words to tell you what she wants. And then if she still is not happy and she wants to throw a fit, then she can do it in her own room because it hurts your ears. I tell my boys that it is OK that they get mad and frustrated, but that if they want to yell and scream, they have to do it privately.
And lastly, it is a stage. A stage where they are trying to be more independent and have their own voice. Its rough, but it does end. 4 is really nice...we are enjoying it much more than 3, LOL!
*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
A sure way to avoid housework...live outdoors.
www.vintagechica.typepad.com |
| bramble |
Posted - Jan 08 2007 : 10:28:03 AM
Faith- We have all been there! I think the important thing for your daughter to learn is to "mean what you say and say what you mean". She can't manipulate you into giving her whatever she wants whenever she decides she wants it or you will be dealing with this for many years to come!What happens when she's standing at the car dealer screaming she wants a BMW?!!!
I have found when dealing with my kids or anyone else's that if they begin to have a tantrum, I just sit down next to them and speak very quietly. I say things like "I know your angry right now but this isn't how we solve our problems", or "I know you are unhappy but this behavior isn't going to accomplish anything". Speak in calm, quiet tones and it is amazing how quickly they will start to calm down. Rub their back, hold their hand whatever gives them comfort and a safe place to have a meltdown but don't give in! When they calm down and you can speak "rationally" (how rational is a three year old EVER?!!!) You can discuss what would have been a better way to have solved that problem. Usually, they already know the answers themselves. Let them tell you what they want to do next time so this doesn't happen again. I don't confess to being an expert but that technique has worked at home, school and with family quite well. Just don't lose your cool, THAT usually seems to be what escalates this situation. Next time you're in a store watch how the parents are treating a really out of control child. They threaten, yell, sometimes hit and usually are very antagonistic and then give in out of exasperation. Not my idea of a solution! Good luck sweetie, this is the time to nip it in the bud! Courage Mama!
with a happy heart |
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