| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| fiddlers wife |
Posted - Feb 04 2009 : 6:05:49 PM
Farmgirls, I'm calling on your expertise and honest opinions. Please tell me what you think.
I purchased a purebred German Shepherd puppy from a reputable breeder last summer. I paid a premium for a pet quality puppy, but didn't mind based on the quality of her bloodlines and the guarantee that came with the dog. I signed a neuter contract. I have kept in touch with her and sent pictures, etc. and everything was fine until the first inkling of trouble. I haven't heard from her since.
Fast forward to now. Just got back from the vet and the now almost 9 month old puppy has been diagosed with Panosteitis (sometimes called long bone disease). He is displaying marked lameness on his left front leg, whereas it started on his right front a couple of months ago. He was prescribed prednisone and the prognosis is good but I won't know until he's 18-20 months old if it's gone. In addition to this, we determined for sure that he is a Unilateral Cryptorchid which means that the neuter procedure will cost me twice as much as a typical neuter would.
To make things more interesting, he has developed what the trainer and I believe to be fear aggression. I think it was brought on by an attack from another dog when he was about 6 months old. He was completely freaked out after that (although not physically injured). This dog has gone virtually everywhere with me from 9 weeks on and I've NEVER had a problem with him until the attack occured. He is fine at home, even with people who are strangers to him (haven't been to our house since we got him, but who are known to our family). It's outside of home that he gets a little weird. We have completed Basic Obedience and plan to go on to Intermediate this spring. I have contacted a certified animal behaviorist and will have him evaluated to determine if that's what it is or if it's something more serious. In the meantime, he is crated when unsupervised, well-mannered in the house, knows who the pack leader is (ME) and behaves in ways pretty typical of an almost 9 month old puppy.
I plan to email the breeder tomorrow (I'm sending her some photos anyway). I want to let her know the latest developments with the Panosteitis and the one gonad situation. My question is what, if any, is her obligation as far as standing behind what she's breeding? If you were the puppy owner, what would you do? If you were the breeder, what would you do?
I have a contract but I don't want to overwhelm you with details right off the bat.
Thanks in advance, assuming you've made it this far! 
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| twzlrwho |
Posted - Feb 17 2009 : 2:05:29 PM
I can relate, my german shepherd pup is 15mnths old and diagnosed with dysplasia. Yikes! Both of her parents hips were certified so of course my breeder isn't cooperating with me either. It's quite frustrating.
I'm glad to hear he is feeling better!!!!
Work like you don't have to, love like you've never been hurt, and dance like nobody is watching :) |
| fiddlers wife |
Posted - Feb 17 2009 : 1:48:46 PM
Christina,
yes, too much protein is a possible culprit. I've got him on a holistic 24% protein food, as I have all along. He is doing MUCH better since the prednisone and at least now I have something to help him if he has another bout of lameness.
The situation with the breeder is tricky, The place is very clean, her dogs are clean and in good physical condition but she feels that in order to manage everybody they have to be separated. (This is her reasoning, not mine). She spends a great deal of money on various forms of testing and health screenings, X rays and certifications & titles, but their mental health doesn't seem to be that important to her. I don't understand it.
The main thing is my guy is back to his bright, happy self and we can deal with the other stuff. I'd just as soon not talk to the breeder.
Thanks for your input.
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| twzlrwho |
Posted - Feb 17 2009 : 1:20:54 PM
I read that long bone disease can be caused by too much protein in the puppy diet. The bones don't grow at the same speed and I believe a lot of them might even grow out of it. Also unfortunately most states consider dogs livestock so the same rules apply for enclosures. That's why puppy mills have lasted so long. I am proud to say VA was one of the first states to change this and now have more of a stipulation on how many dogs you can have and the condition they are kept in. I wish you all the luck as I have a german shepherd myself and am an avid dog lover!
Best Wishes,
Christina |
| Annab |
Posted - Feb 14 2009 : 09:45:43 AM
Oh boy and a big sigh.......smacking her dogs?!? Crating for long periods!?!? 
I am a proponent of crate trainig of course, but this is rediculous.
Pups that I have purchased from breeders in years past were given a "room" of their own and a lot of people/different circumatance exposure before they were released to their new owners. There was a set number of things the pups had to experience. Stuff like strange people, other dogs, other animals, rides in the car, short trips outside...really anything POSITIVE to provide good lasting non fearful experiences at such a young age..
I feel very badly for you and worse for the animals under the breeder's "care" that don't know any better |
| fiddlers wife |
Posted - Feb 12 2009 : 4:25:43 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Beverley
I am glad your dog feels better and am glad she is refunded some of your money. But mostly I am glad things are going better for you and your dog. Hopefully it will all work out in the end...
Folks will know how large your soul is by the way you treat a dog....Charles F. Doran
beverley baggett Beverley with an extra E...
http://bevsdoggies.googlepages.com/
Beverley, she didn't refund anything - she offered to and asked how much I think one testicle is worth. I haven't answered her because, really, what can I say? It doesn't matter at this point - I'm not going to return the dog and I'll deal with the extra surgical costs for the runaway testicle. I know the dog is far better off with me. Thanks so much for your concern!
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| Beverley |
Posted - Feb 12 2009 : 4:08:42 PM
I am glad your dog feels better and am glad she is refunded some of your money. But mostly I am glad things are going better for you and your dog. Hopefully it will all work out in the end...
Folks will know how large your soul is by the way you treat a dog....Charles F. Doran
beverley baggett Beverley with an extra E...
http://bevsdoggies.googlepages.com/ |
| fiddlers wife |
Posted - Feb 10 2009 : 7:58:15 PM
Thanks, everybody.
Just want to clarify - the breeder told me herself that her routine consists of the dogs spending most of their time in crates with very rigid feed and exercise schedules, except for two of her females. I guess the intact males fight? I don't know. She is also very outspoken about smacking her dogs as a form of discipline.
On a positive note - since my guy has been on prednisone he is much happier (like his old self before the Pano). I'm wondering if it wasn't fear aggression at all, just the fact that he was in pain. We're hanging in there and will keep trying to work through this.
I finally heard from the breeder - a long, rather snarky email that ended with her saying she'd refund some of my money, "how much do (I) think a testicle is worth?"
I haven't replied.
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| Beverley |
Posted - Feb 10 2009 : 6:25:36 PM
I have bred dogs for a few years and to tell you the truth ,you can see a puppies personality when they are little but not till after they are about 8 weeks. so before that they are just to young to see all of their personality and how they will turn out or what they will encounter along the way to bring that personality out. Good and Bad. So the aggression part is not what I would call inbred. I have had the sweetest mom and dad have a pain in the butt puppy and vise versa. and for growing to fast that is just a chance you take with large dogs and that is not the breeders fault either. The testicle thing could have just happened as explained by some one else here. If her dogs are winning in the ring they can't be fearful or aggressive or they would not be allowed in the ring. so she must be doing something right. Her comments were uncalled for that is for sure. No dog deserves to be smacked or mistreated..People telling you that she crates her dogs is my concern. Unless you saw it yourself you might be getting wrong info. Take whatever anyone says with a grain of salt including me. we all see it from our own prospective so you really have to be the one who makes the call here. Your dog is still young and can have a good life with you and you seem to be trying everything you can for it and it sounds like it will all work out. You love your dog and will do the right things...
Folks will know how large your soul is by the way you treat a dog....Charles F. Doran
beverley baggett Beverley with an extra E...
http://bevsdoggies.googlepages.com/ |
| kissmekate |
Posted - Feb 09 2009 : 7:44:07 PM
Here is my two cents. Turn the breeder in.
Getting one hour of freedom per day, and hit for discipline is no life.
Her dogs have no one else to speak for them. It's not like they can dial a phone and call the Humane Society.
No dog deserves to be mistreated.
I speak as the proud mother of a very spoiled Scottie.
Don't miss out on a blessing, just because it isn't packaged the way you expected. ~MaryJo Copeland |
| Ingrid |
Posted - Feb 09 2009 : 1:55:55 PM
I had a purebred German Shepherd got him at 8 weeks old and died at 13. Spoiled rotten. He grew rapidly and had joint problems and ended up with a crooked leg. Didn't get him from a certified breeder but the lady really helped with advice etc and felt bad we had problems. I now have a shepherd/lab cross - a stray found in the bush - he is aggressive with other dogs except for small dogs. Found this out when I was out with him on a leash and another dog came towards me agressively. He had the dog pinned to the ground in about 5 seconds pulled the leash right out of my hands. No damage thankfully to the dog or me. I talked with a trainer and ended up buying a choker style collar that has prongs. Sounds awful but really isn't. After working with him consistently he now behaves a lot better. Not perfect but work in progress. The prongs on the collar don't hurt just remind him who is boss. Now I don't have to apply very much pressure when we walk. He still makes noises and growls under his breath but doesn't lunge at dogs anymore. I would report the breeder to whatever agency will listen because dogs don't deserve to live in cages whatever the reason and be smacked and treated badly. It is cruel. Anyway, there is a solution. I'm a sucker for german shepherds.
Give thanks to yourself everyday for all the wonderful things you do! |
| fiddlers wife |
Posted - Feb 07 2009 : 05:44:11 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Annab
I'll second that "Whole Dog Journal". Have been a subscriber for 4 years. It's chalked full of all kinds of great positive training articles and information on non-synthetic/homeopathic remedies.
If you are interested do you think one of those whole body wraps for anxiety would help?
I would be very interested in a whole body wrap! Maybe even for the dog too, LOL. 
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| Annab |
Posted - Feb 07 2009 : 03:20:09 AM
I'll second that "Whole Dog Journal". Have been a subscriber for 4 years. It's chalked full of all kinds of great positive training articles and information on non-synthetic/homeopathic remedies.
If you are interested do you think one of those whole body wraps for anxiety would help? |
| Annab |
Posted - Feb 07 2009 : 03:17:00 AM
Yea, it's kind of amusing. My dog puts herself to bed too if it's getting late and we are still watching t.v. Sometimes when we come home from work she'll be lounging. Watch dog indeed. Or as soon as she hears me open the frige for her nightly piece of cheese. That's become her cue for "get into bed".
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| PlumCreekMama |
Posted - Feb 06 2009 : 6:45:18 PM
I personally would get in contact with your local humane society and tell them about her treatment of her own dogs. Ours around here will go investigate- maybe something could be done.
I think if what your dog has isn't a congenital defect, then I don't think she could be held responsible in terms of the contract, but since you don't want to give the dog back, I don't think that is what you are worried about. You did the right thing in telling her what you could about your dog's diagnosis, so she can do research and decide if she wants to keep breeding the parents. I have been raising Shih Tzus for 8 years, and I once had a problem with two puppies of a litter and I spayed and neutered the parents immediately.
I guess other than the work you are already doing to help your dog, just make sure people you know who may want a puppy from her hear your experience. Though even that may not be enough. A family member of mine hated the puppy mill next door when she lived with my parents, but her and her husband bought a poodle from a puppy mill who had never been on grass, and they knew it. Now they wonder why he's such an insane dog. Duh!
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| fiddlers wife |
Posted - Feb 06 2009 : 06:04:40 AM
quote:
Originally posted by prariehawk
Just a thought--there is a type of spray available at most pet stores that contains D.A.P. (Dog Appeasing Hormone). This hormone has been proven to reduce anxiety in dogs. Some people spray it on a bandana and tie it around the dog's neck and it seems to have a calming effect on the dog. This might help with the fear biting. Also, your dog's age may have something to do with his behavior--he's entering his "teen" years and like many young dogs, can be a real handful. It sounds like he has anxiety and doesn't know how to deal with it. But if I came from a breeder who "beat the snot" out of me, I'd have anxiety too.
Hope this helps--it sounds like all the things you're doing are good choices. You might also want to check out the Whole Dog Journal, which has many good articles on dealing with fear/anxiety in dogs. And all the techniques they use are non-aggressive. Dog bless and good luck!
Someone else mentioned this to me. I'm going to try to find it. I have Bach's remedy for anxiety and will try giving him some of that before we go out. My vet suggested that the pain from the Pano could have contributed to his overall crankiness along with the drive to protect me, since he's getting to that age.
Haven't heard from the breeder but it doesn't really matter - I'm going to keep on truckin'.
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| fiddlers wife |
Posted - Feb 06 2009 : 06:02:21 AM
Anna- that Patricia O'Connell book is on my wish list on Paperbackswap, actually. Thanks for the recommendations.
I'm fortunate that I'm home a lot so Luke spends most of the day out of the crate, at my feet. He puts himself to bed at 10:30 if I haven't done it already, so he's used to and comfortable in his crate. Having it makes things easier for those times he can't be watched or, for example, when trying to decorate a Christmas tree. ;0)
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| prariehawk |
Posted - Feb 06 2009 : 04:36:53 AM
Just a thought--there is a type of spray available at most pet stores that contains D.A.P. (Dog Appeasing Hormone). This hormone has been proven to reduce anxiety in dogs. Some people spray it on a bandana and tie it around the dog's neck and it seems to have a calming effect on the dog. This might help with the fear biting. Also, your dog's age may have something to do with his behavior--he's entering his "teen" years and like many young dogs, can be a real handful. It sounds like he has anxiety and doesn't know how to deal with it. But if I came from a breeder who "beat the snot" out of me, I'd have anxiety too.
Hope this helps--it sounds like all the things you're doing are good choices. You might also want to check out the Whole Dog Journal, which has many good articles on dealing with fear/anxiety in dogs. And all the techniques they use are non-aggressive. Dog bless and good luck! |
| Annab |
Posted - Feb 06 2009 : 03:35:44 AM
Now that you mention it, my first pup had issues that were passed along genetically too. Not so much bad healh issues, but temperament things that wouod surface every now and again.
The breeder ought to help work with you. She might have deeper insight.
And as far as the attack goes. Guess if it came out of the blue we'd all be a little gun shy. Nothing like being blindsided be it human or animal.
And for crate training. Right on sista! Better safe and unsupervised than loose and getting into trouble. Crate training is one of the best tools. And if done correctly, is seen as a positive. Think of it as a retreat, den and safety. After a time when the dog demonstrates responsibility (no more destructive behavior) we grant ours freedom of the house while we are away. I mentally feel better knowing the dog has a choice and isn't confined all day. If dogs are trained correctly, and the crate is made comfortable, it shouldn't be an issue.
And, for leash walking/dog interractions, sometimes this makes a behavior worse. Our emotions are transmitted through the leash.
May I suggest a really great book called "The Other End of The Leash" by Patricia O'Connel. And a new one jsut released by a Temple Granden. Both authors give great insight into dog behavior. Temple has Autism but has learned to push through by relating to animals. In fact, she is credited with revolutionmizing how beef is slaughtered more humanely. She is doing the same for the pork industry too. Her most resent book "Animals Make Us Human" she talks about pound and rescue animals. |
| nut4fabric |
Posted - Feb 05 2009 : 10:07:18 AM
When I was growing up we had a female german shepard that was a "loaded gun", very sweet and loving to family and friends but strangers especially kids and other animals were at risk. She too came from a good breeder and was socialized well at a young age so we always figured it was in her genes. There was never a question about returning her, she was ours and our problem child, we were just always very careful about new people. Funny thing with her, when I had my son we were very worried about her reaction....she walked up to where he was laying, licked his head and laid down next to him. They were buddies until the day she passed on. The only child she ever liked. On another note....I have a friend that owns a dog that is often freaked out and aggresive so the vet put the dog on Prozac and the dog is doing great. |
| FiddleChick |
Posted - Feb 05 2009 : 10:04:02 AM
Fiddler's Wife, I totally empathize...I rescued my (now six year old) German Shep who was on his way to the Humane Society at the tender age of 3 months. I didn't have the opportunity to "choose" him, but he came from a reputable breeder (my dad actually bought him and he did a lot of research too). He was diagnosed with elbow dysplasia around the time he was neutered (fortunately though his limp went away and while he may have trouble with it as he gets older has been active and okay so far.) Anyway, although I socialized him like crazy (because I grew up with sheperds and know what they can be like) it didn't do any good and I have to be very careful with him around other dogs. He's usually okay with people, and if he's on a leash I can walk him past other dogs if they're on leashes - he only attacks if other dogs run right up to him, which unfortunately happens more often than I'd like. So I know what it's like to have a "problem" child, but like you, by the time I figured it out I'd fallen in love with him and like you said, they're better off with us because we will protect them from themselves and give them a good life. Your dog is lucky to have you. My own personal opinion is the breeder should give you a partial refund for the medical problems, but that's my two cents.
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| fiddlers wife |
Posted - Feb 05 2009 : 08:23:59 AM
Restrictive pretty much sums it all up!
I'm not going to turn this into a huge battle. I would rather keep the dog and deal with it than get into a protracted battle with her (and more money down the tubes). If she has any decency she'll want to work it out - I'm not going to be unreasonable about it and hopefully she won't either.
My mom had a good point - the dog is better off with me than the breeder and possibly with anyone else who may have gotten him, so it's a mixed blessing. He's just sort of my "problem child," although it's nothing I can't handle.
Thanks for the feedback! I may run the contractby a lawyer friend, just to see what he thinks.
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| willowtreecreek |
Posted - Feb 05 2009 : 08:17:46 AM
I don't really know that AKC will do or will be able to do anything. They really have no jurisdiction over the breeders. There are a few things in the contract that seem strange to me but I have never dealt with such a restrictive contract. Your best bet is just to contact the breeder and possibly involve a lawyer to determine if either party is in violation of the contract and then proceed from there.
Farmgirl Sister #17
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| fiddlers wife |
Posted - Feb 05 2009 : 08:17:20 AM
Giving the dog back for a refund is not an option.
I have too much time and effort invested - it's not about the money at this point. I want what's best for the dog and going back is not what's best for him, especially if his aggression is fear based. He will live in a state of fear.
I thought I had done my homework in looking for a new puppy. Her dogs have impressive accomplishments in terms of their titles and wins in the show ring. She has her dogs tested for everything under the sun and offeres a health guarantee, so I figured I was safe. I'm not sure if any of these problems will be covered by the guarantee, but I've emailed her so we'll see what happens.
FWIW, I agree that the living conditions are cruel.
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| gramadinah |
Posted - Feb 05 2009 : 08:07:33 AM
I think I would alert the American Kennel club. Or where ever they have the dogs registered. I think that the animal control might even need to be advised if this dogs are kept in cages and only let out 4 times a day. Isn't that crulety to animals. You might get you money back but the breeder might also demand that the dog be returned and then what life does it have if the breeder keeps it alive. Unfortunatly you have a pet that is going to be a handful. I bought a Newfoundland that was a real case also I had him for 5 years and loved every minute. I did the same thing asked what the breeder would do and he said to return the dog and he would put it down and give me a new puppy. I had to keep Sampson as Sara had already come to love him my other newfoundland. He didn't ask for that so he stayed here and grew old and had a good life. The breeder did lose his AKC creditation though.
Diana
Farmgirl Sister #273 |
| doglady |
Posted - Feb 05 2009 : 07:09:07 AM
My thoughts - a male puppy can indeed have both testicles down and showing normal at 8 weeks of age. However, sometimes one will "float" back up through the ring hole from time to time while growing. If the testicles is in the up position when the "ring closes", it gets trapped and is called a Cryptorchid. Since the puppy was sold as a pet, the breeder should be concerned about her bloodlines producing the ring problem but do nothing. This will not interfere with being a pet. I would check around for the cost factor from at least two other vets and check your Humane Society's spay/neuter program for cost too.
Keeping large dogs in crates most of the day is just not caring about your dogs. Big dogs need 20x room to exercise. Hope this helps.
Tina
You can tell your dog all of your secrets and they'll never say a word!
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