| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Pavla |
Posted - Sep 16 2008 : 10:12:22 AM
Hi Ladies,
Hope I picked to right place to post this. Just curious to know and wanted to get everyone's opinion on feminism. I don't know perhaps many of you have not given much thought to feminism as a movement and the outcome/results of such a movement. I have my own opinions for sure but am curious what other farmgirls think. I have thought about this lots before Sarah Palin, but more so after. Anyone care to discuss/offer their opinion? |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| elphie0503 |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 6:39:02 PM
Meg--I was thinking of the same song...I have it on my playlist, and it finally came around this morning. Sadly, it is a rich man's world...
Samantha
www.myspace.com/elphie0503
I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas; they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.~~Emily Bronte, Wuthering Heights
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| fionalovesshrek |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 4:13:54 PM
I worked out the numbers, using a few websites with the median incomes (before taxes) of the different jobs I do, and fell short of my previous quote but not by much. Here it is.
Teacher (one 5th grader, one 1st grader, one kindergardener and threw in the three year olds "preschool" for free) : 84,256.00
Clerk: 27,768.00
Driver: 22,776.00
chambermaid:16,956.00
Nurse in training: 32,232.00
masseur (yes, that's code for sex):18,950.00
cook : 12,376.00
recreation coordinator: 16,796.00
Laundry maid: 15,548.00
kitchen prep and cleaner : 11,700.00
childcare for 4 children: 37,856.00
total:297,214.00
I remember now, I threw in the rest because hubby is w/ the Marines, and deploys every other year or so, so then I get to add
dad, mechanic, plumber, yard maintenance, etcetcetc.
There you have it.
Hey, I want a raise!
P~
www.fionaswampington.blogspot.com
http://homespunhensfarmgirlchapter.blogspot.com/
Man, despite his artistic pretensions, his sophistication, and his many accomplishments, owes his existence to a six inch layer of topsoil and the fact that it rains. |
| Amie C. |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 12:08:09 PM
I think it's definitely our needs, and the cost of said needs. I've seen numerous studies recently (sorry, I can't think of one to link to off the top of my head) showing that, while the cost of food and consumer goods has declined over the past 50 years, the cost of big ticket items like housing, education, and health care take up a far greater share of our incomes. And wages (in the US at least) have been outpaced by inflation. The bottom line: we work harder now for less than we did in the 1950s-1960s. |
| sweetproserpina |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 11:59:29 AM
Thanks Jo :) This is such an interesting topic isn't it?
As a historian, it's interesting to see how society today has evolved into a world where most families need two incomes to survive. How did we get this way? Was it with the rise of the middle class and their slow desire for more and better 'stuff'? Keeping up with the Jones' and all that until finally, both parents had to be employed to afford all that stuff? Or have our needs (and the cost of needs!) outstripped those of days past? Do the basics of life cost so much more than they did years ago? Do we get paid so much less than our ancestors did? Or do we just have more needs than they did?
Questions, questions. It makes me think of that great ABBA song: Money Money Money! Lol.
"Isn't it splendid to think of all the things there are to find out about? It just makes me feel glad to be alive--it's such an interesting world."
http://quaintandkeepinghouse.blogspot.com New Homekeeping Blog!
http://theprimroseway.blogspot.com/ |
| Kris Sherrill |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 10:30:14 AM
This is an amazing topic. There are a lot of things one could comment on. Everyone seems to have put so much tought on the subject.
All i can say is that i never wanted to have a career. As soon as i got married almost 30 years ago I worked because that's what i had done for several years. I was 20 when we married and hubby was 30. Got pregnant right away. But as soon as I had our daughter, things changed. All i wanted to do was raise a family. I know I was very fortunate to have found someone who already owned a house and land and a very good job. But that did not last forever. There were a lot of times I had to work just to help put food on the table. Several times there were lengthy layoffs. He'd stay home and keep the girls. One time I worked at a pizza place and he was called back to work. I had to find a sitter. That lasted 1 day. That woman was horrible. The youngest was in cloth diapers and she through them away! They were a from a diaper service, too. Not even mine. Needless to say, I quit that job.
I am all for SAHM's all the way. But not everyone is able to do that. i applaud all you who work outside the home then come home to another full time job!
As far as my 2 grown daughters. They don't understand how I could still be at home. Like I don't work here. They don't see all I do here... They will this winter when I have their dinner. But my oldest sometimes says I'm so lucky to have a husband who will "support" me so i don't have to work. Huh! She also got pregnant with our 1st GD who I would not trade for a herd of goats! She's 9 now. And has 2 more girls. And I thought I raised them "right" They do what they want at a certain age and all we can do is pray them through it.
All this to say I was never a women's libber but have done my share of paying the bills!
I'm thankful there are women in all areas of the work place because Ithink nothing would get done at all.
I sure wish there were more women inventers, too. I have lots of good ideas floating around this head. |
| jo Thompson |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 09:25:34 AM
Meg, that was beautifully written, of course from a canadian woman! I lived in Ontario with my then fiance who passed away from a brain tumor. Your health care system took care of him from the moment he became ill until he died. That health care system supported me until that sad moment with emotional support, it is sad to say our health care system does not.
We have zillions of magazines on how to cook, clean, on and on. I don't think it's that people don't admire all the virtues of staying at home, it's that they can't. Who can afford to be a stay at home now. I stayed home ten years, but my husband had a very good job. I don't think many people have that choice. The beauty of all of that is about "choice", choice to choose about our lives, our children, our bodies...... If we lived in the 1700's our children would be made to wear the letter "A" if they had an out of wedlock pregnancy. Heavens, in the 60's you were sent away to an unwed home. Women in their 30's and 40's don't remember that.
Thank you so much for such a well thought response.
jo
"life is drab without a lab"
http://web.mac.com/thomja/ |
| simplyflowers |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 09:15:07 AM
ok ladies, I have to be honest here, I've been thinking about this since yesterday afternoon really hard.....
I was kinda [just a tad] upset [not by anyone...but maybe the situation] when I went to pick Zach up yesterday from the sitter's house. He just didn't want to go home. I know that this isn't really a bad thing, I'm mean I know he receives excellent care there. And he just likes it there too. He did come home and he was fine with that after about 20 seconds, but still, this thread was fresh in my mind. Then this morning, I got him out of the crib and he said his goodmornings and then proceeded to talk about his sitter. And I don't mind this at all. But I think to myself, if I were in a different situation were I could be at home then this would be very different. I really don't mind working at all b/c that means I can buy groceries every week and help pay the bills. But deep deep down, I would like to be at home with Zach. And sometimes I'm sad that I'm not. I miss him terribly but there is just nothing that I can do about it. We are a family that survives on two incomes, not one. There is no way around it.
Just had to get this off my chest. It's not a matter of whether I want to work or not, it's a matter of whether we want to survive or not. I'm glad to be a help to the family. I've a great job and a beautiful family. But I wish I had more of that wonderful time together with Zach...Not just more time...but more quality time.
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas Edison |
| simplyflowers |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 09:02:31 AM
Hey Paige!! You're a rich woman!!! In so many ways! How did you break that down?
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas Edison |
| sweetproserpina |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 08:45:41 AM
Feminism is a tricky thing to pin down, I think. If it was truly as the dictionary defines, I would strongly stand behind it. Feminism as a way to give women real choice and opportunity, I am a strong supporter of. I think the younger generation of today though, really doesn't consciously think about it. It's not that we take it for granted, but we assume that, of course, men and women have the same opportunities, it's only fair. We were taught as we grew up that everyone was equal in rights, no matter their sex.
However, we did grow up with first hand experience of what the second-wave of feminism did to effect home life. We grew up as latch-key kids, hoping one day that we would find someone at home with a snack waiting for us, but it never happened. We saw through our children's eyes that work and earning money was very important, and sometimes much more important than being with your kids.
I was lucky that I took a vested interest in cooking and old-fashioned stuff, but so many of my friends as they went out into the world for the first time were so completely unprepared. They had no household skills at all. Couldn't cook, couldn't clean, couldn't do laundry to save their lives. Sew on a button? Forget it. Nobody had been around to teach them how, and somehow the value of these skills started to degrade. If nobody paid you money to do them, what was the point?
Even though women were told to join the workforce (in school it wasn't even an option to consider being a homemaker or stay-at-home mum, they weren't proper careers) many women today still do the majority of the household chores too. Men are starting to share some of the responsibilities, but it's still not equal. What's hardest is how far feminism has swung from it's original intentions of equality of choice. Were we given a choice by the second-wave feminist teachers that it was all right to choose to be a homemaker over being a scientist? My family is made up of professionals, academics, and artists, and me, my mum and my grandma are university grads. I have never been career-driven, and when I finally got a job that was seasonal, it meant I could really stay-at-home (yay!), for at least some of the year. And I even had an excuse for staying at home - nature of the job and all. But it was still awkward, people asking me what in the world I did with myself all day, and wasn't I bored, and wouldn't I be happy when I found 'real' full-time job. And it hurt, and I was afraid to admit to anyone that what I'd truly like to do is stay-at-home full-time. When did wanting to care for your home and family become something unappealing to society?
As I get older, I'm getting braver. And through this forum, and others on the web have found many kindred spirits :) I just wish young women (and men!) weren't pushed so much into careers and were given more options and opportunities. Only then, will everyone have real equality of choice and then, only if every job, paid or not, is valued equally.
As for Ms. Palin, I'm glad she has the opportunity to be VP. Is it a choice I would make with a new special needs baby? Not necessarily, but I'm happy to acknowledge that it was her choice to run, I think that's the important part.
Boy, is this sure a complex issue. I know we're only scratching the surface, but it's interesting to read everyone's thoughts. And of course, no offense meant to any of my farmgirls as to my views. :) There are all kinds of home/work balances that work. It's the people involved who make them work! I think they should all be respected. What works for one, may not work for someone some. Housewives, househusbands, part-timers, seasonals, full-timers, temps, and more. Every family is different and wonderful in it's own way.
I'm going to finish this off with my favourite Tasha Tudor quote, an amazing woman all 'round.
"I enjoy doing housework, ironing, washing, cooking, dishwashing. Whenever I get one of those questionnaires and they ask what is your profession, I always put down housewife. It's an admirable profession, why apologize for it. You aren't stupid because you're a housewife. When you're stirring the jam you can read Shakespeare." -Tasha Tudor
"Isn't it splendid to think of all the things there are to find out about? It just makes me feel glad to be alive--it's such an interesting world."
http://quaintandkeepinghouse.blogspot.com New Homekeeping Blog!
http://theprimroseway.blogspot.com/ |
| yarnmamma |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 05:19:05 AM
I have to say thanks to AnneMarie for explaining what is true. You put it in words that made sense to me. I couldn't have said it better.
I was home as a mom & housewife with my older sons but it did affect how my X husband treated me years ago, he used the opportunity to oppress me. He wanted me to work to make money, give it all to him, do all the child care and housework and cooking. I couldn't do it all so I stayed at home. He was abusive and when I got out of that situation I had to work to support myself, which saved my sanity at the time. I am single and home now with my young adopted special needs son. He is in school during the school year and there is plenty to do without having to run myself ragged and being tired all the time. I do some part time volunteer work that gets me out and around people.
The honor of being a full time homemaker may come back when farmgirls like this forum stand up for. You gals have me enjoying wearing an apron again and hanging clothes outside and making things by hand. It's great to re-purpose things for wearing too. This site is changing my life in many little ways and I love it!
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One day at a time by the grace of God.
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farmgirl #71 Linda in PA |
| yarnmamma |
Posted - Sep 17 2008 : 05:03:39 AM
Thanks Alee for this:
Feminism is defined by the Webster dictionary as:
1) the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2) organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests
Webster dictionary works for me. For me feminist means respect for women to escape abuse. The basic attitude had to change because so many women were really hurt, abused emotional & physical from the lact of respect.
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One day at a time by the grace of God.
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farmgirl #71 Linda in PA |
| fionalovesshrek |
Posted - Sep 16 2008 : 3:42:49 PM
I've always believed that the Industrial Revolution, that took the fathers away from home, was "the beginning of the end" or the beginning of the fray in the family. Fathers working long hard hours away, meant more work for mom at home. Mom works hard but doesn't get paid like dad does, mom wants to get paid, or atleast have the right to vote like dad does. Mom marches with other moms for right to vote, right to work outside home etc. Mom gets her wish. Mom and dad now leave the house every day to work. Kids are left to raise themselves, be raised by peers or the lucky ones are raised by someone (who is also working outside the home) working in said childs home, and getting paid for it.
What attracts me most about my desire for the farm life, is that dad will be working at home, around the home, in the field and right there. And I'll be right alongside him along with the boys. An entire unit, working together, loving, striving and enjoying the rewards of our own labor. Seeing the work from till to harvest, from first ax cut to finally finished house. It's not just "feminism" as it's vaguely defined today that is the "cause" of our woes, it's the modernization, the machines, that took us out of agriculture and into the warehouse, into the office and into the doldrums of the rat race we see as "success" to this day.
I think the Amish did it right, saying no thanks to the advances, staying together and working together.
ON a different but similiar note, I added up my wages for house cleaning, mothering four boys, homeschooling four boys, cooking meals and the loving hubby gets and if I were to collect a check, it'd be over 345,000 dollars each year. I am home, and I'm worth every penny of it (even though it's paid out in hugs and kisses).
Paige
www.fionaswampington.blogspot.com
http://homespunhensfarmgirlchapter.blogspot.com/
Man, despite his artistic pretensions, his sophistication, and his many accomplishments, owes his existence to a six inch layer of topsoil and the fact that it rains. |
| willowtreecreek |
Posted - Sep 16 2008 : 3:14:40 PM
I am glad that we have the ability to make a choice. If I ever had kids I would want to stay home with them but I don't look down at those that choose to work.
Farmgirl Sister #17
Blog
www.willowtreecreek.wordpress.com
Felt and Fabric Crafts
www.willowartist.etsy.com
www.willowtreecreek.com
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| Alee |
Posted - Sep 16 2008 : 1:33:13 PM
I personally think that it takes all types of people to make the world go around. If staying home is what makes you happy and makes your family happy, then that is great! I know that is what I strive for.
However, survival and such must come first. And if a woman is unhappy at home, then it probably isn't serving her family best for her to be at home.
For instance, I used to work with a very sweet and loving woman who refused to hold babies. She just wasn't a baby person. She and her husband had one baby and he stayed home with their daughter while she worked. She loves her daughter very much but she even confessed that she was more comfortable around her once she was older and could talk and that the only reason they had a baby was because her husband wanted to and was willing to be a stay at home Dad.
Feminism is defined by the Webster dictionary as:
1) the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2) organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests
And since I believe that every human should be on an equal level with everyone else, I firmly agree with Feminism as defined.
I think the most important thing to remember is that now women have the choices instead of being forced into any one role.
I hope to be able to raise Nora and any other children that I may have to be good citizens, good and kind humans, and a helping hand for the planet. I believe it is more on the values and lessons that you instill in your children rather than whether one gender of parent is home or if a nanny/babysitter is employed.
Hopefully we farmgirl Sisters can enact a grassroots movement that makes our families first. I firmly believe that the most beneficial and lasting change is that which is made over time. By passing on good values to our children, hopefully we will see a future developing that is more bright.
Alee
Farmgirl Sister #8
www.awarmheart.com
Please come visit Nora and me on our blog: www.farmgirlalee.blogspot.com
Put your pin on the farmgirl map! www.farmgirlmap.blogspot.com |
| sleepless reader |
Posted - Sep 16 2008 : 1:32:14 PM
"I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat or a prostitute."
Rebecca West
That about sums it up for me. This has been a very interesting read.I love reading all your different opinions and respect each of them!
Sharon
Farmgirl Sister #74
Life is messy. Wear your apron! |
| Pavla |
Posted - Sep 16 2008 : 1:25:29 PM
Well ladies, I must sign off for the night. Thank you to all for the non-judgmental responses, it gives me a lot to think about! And if anyone else wants to chime in please do! Everyone have a lovely evening! |
| Pavla |
Posted - Sep 16 2008 : 1:20:15 PM
You know I was just thinking that really the feminist movement was about releasing women from oppression, oppression in the work place, oppression at home, oppression in every facet of our society. But did it really achieve what was it was intended to achieve? So now women that stay home are judged and looked down upon. So we went from one oppression to another. What was the point then I ask? If this movement had happened over a longer period of time would it have been more balanced? It seems to me like it was 'we must change, now! Women cannot be expected to stay home, what a waste!' It was forced. It created an imbalance in the other direction. I still think that if this movement had not happened with the intensity it did, women would have worked their way up anyway. We women are survivors. So I just fail to see that it did what it intended to do, it just created different oppression. In no way can you say that men and women are equal in everything even now, after feminism. I just mourn the loss of our families, and think that we must focus on that in order to return our society to balance. Even if it means that someone must make sacrifices. It is worth it. Our families should be number one, I think! |
| kmbrown |
Posted - Sep 16 2008 : 1:02:50 PM
You are very right about society valuing families Amie. It's to bad really. Maybe someday things will be different. |
| jo Thompson |
Posted - Sep 16 2008 : 1:01:07 PM
this is a hot topic! I would only wish my daughters to have all the options that my son might have. She could be a stay at home mom or CEO. I do think there are different seasons in your life for things, it's tough to think you can do it all........
"life is drab without a lab"
http://web.mac.com/thomja/ |
| Amie C. |
Posted - Sep 16 2008 : 12:54:55 PM
I'm not sure feminism is really at the bottom of the problem. I agree with Pavla in thinking that the current two parents/two incomes working lifestyle is not really the best way to live. It's the main reason I don't have children. I have to work in order for my husband and myself to survive, and I can't imagine adding a child into the current situation. For one thing, the cost of child care would eat up at least two thirds of my income!
But on the other hand, the original goals of the feminist movement were very basic human rights issues. Women before feminism had very limited opportunities to provide for themselves if they had to. They couldn't vote, it was a matter of course that they were paid half as much as men in the few jobs that were open to them, in the case of divorce (very rare!) the children would automatically be put in the custody of their father and most likely never see their mother again.
I'd like to see the best of both worlds: if you want to have a family where one parent stays home full time, women have the right to be the wage earner if that's what works best for them. And why not adjust our worklife to accomodate more part time workers? Let both mother and father be in the house part time and out of the house part time.
I think the more basic issue is the economy. Our society doesn't value family life enough to make one income families (or two part time incomes) a priority. |
| Pavla |
Posted - Sep 16 2008 : 12:54:07 PM
Bravo Georgiann!
I think that you stated it very well. I do agree that we all have our opinion and that is o.k. I am curious though, I have daughters myself and like most mothers I am scared to death at the thought of sending them out on their own. Coming from a mom with experience, do you have any advice as far as the situation your daughter got into? Anything you would do differently? Or is there really nothing we can do because if it is going to happen than it will? Is there anything you and your daughter learned in that difficult situation that could help the rest of us? Any wisdom? I am very glad that in your case everything turned out well. I was not a teenage mommy but I had my first at 23, which is rather young by todays standards. Age however does not make a mother! Don't mean to be nosy, but gosh it gets me thinking and feeling good to hear about others and how they survived. Gives you hope, you know?! |
| kmbrown |
Posted - Sep 16 2008 : 12:35:30 PM
Interesting thoughts!! I was thinking as I was reading these responses of a time when we were at the bank filing paperwork and the gal doing it was VERY modern, stylish ect. (nothing wrong with any of this...just added note) and I felt pretty undermined as I was very overwhelmed trying to control my two boys, then 1 and 2. As she was typing she looked at me and said very snobbishly "do you work". I almost laughed out loud but instead said, " oh yes, I work. Probably much harder than you do most days, just not in an office" I thought dh would fall off his chair but I earned the respect of that gal. She knew exactly what I meant and I didn't feel stupid or disrespected again!! It doesn't matter if you are a homemaker, farmer wife, CEO or even VP, we can at least be respected in the job we are doing. |
| simplyflowers |
Posted - Sep 16 2008 : 11:59:38 AM
I enjoy a good conversation Pavla, and this is that! :) If we all had the same opinion....conversations would be really short. LOLLOL!!! I'm not offended at all, as I hope you or anyone else wouldn't be either.
Sometimes things are overwhelming. It is complex and there is a delicate balance that must take place in order for things to flow accordingly....Does that always happen?? Nope! But we try.
It is hard, I have to catagorize task and decide what is important. Always, Zach and DH rank high. Occasionally though, I HAVE to take a moment or two for myself....And that's ok, we all need that! I do take a break, I work for a great company that respects that fact that I'm a working mommy. I recently took a week off and spent everyday of that week doing something fun and new with Zach. We had a blast!!! The house is a challenge sometimes, but I have help most of the time. The big chunks are usually off the floor anyhow. :)
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas Edison |
| Georgiann |
Posted - Sep 16 2008 : 11:51:35 AM
I think the most important thing we can do as women is to support our fellow women -- our sisters -- whatever choices they may make in life. I may not agree with your politics, your religion, your career path or any number of things, but I support your right to make those choices (as long as those choices are not illegal, unethical, immoral or just plain smarmy!)
We might think we know what would be right in any situation, but unless we have walked in our sister's shoes, there is no way we can second guess her decisions, and should honor her by not imposing our own standards on her lifestyle.
But that's just me . . .
Georgiann
PS I was a SAHM for a long, long time who did all those things you would think a SAHM should do: church every week, school volunteer, 4-H leader, birthday party thrower extrodinaire, active listener, good example, etc., and still ended up with a daughter in the same situation as a VP candidate's daughter. When DD became pregnant, we were snubbed by many of our "friends" who deemed us failures are parents. That hurt. A lot. But three grandsons and a lot of happiness later, we just keep on. Judge less, love more -- that's my motto.
www.oldsweetsong.blogspot.com
Whatever you do, do it with your whole heart
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| Pavla |
Posted - Sep 16 2008 : 11:47:03 AM
Jamie,
Thanks for adding your opinion, I started this thread for opinions and not to offend anyone and so far so good! I did want to ask you, it sounds like right now you pretty much do everything. It sounds like your life is fairly complex and not the simple life that we all seem to seek here. How hard is it on you? It just would seem like you would be very exhausted from running around. Do you ever think that you would just like a break? Myself personally I have a hard time working full time and then taking care of the kids/house. Some days I just about loose it and I hang on to my dream of someday having a more simple life. Just curious how you handle being so busy. Please don't be offended, I am not judging. I have no right to. Just curious.
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