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Ninibini
True Blue Farmgirl

7575 Posts

Nini
Pennsylvania
USA
7575 Posts

Posted - Apr 05 2012 :  05:35:13 AM  Show Profile
Cool! I don't know anything about Denny Burk, either, Peggy. I just happened across his website while looking for the agamos explanation. I chose his because it was in line with what I had learned over the years in Bible studies at various churches and in college, and also because Mr. Burk seems not to be Catholic, so I thought people might be more amenable to reading it. I would really like to hear your hubby's take on this, too! I was going to ask, but wasn't sure if I should. :) Pretty cool stuff, though! I love digging into the "meat" of it all, don't you?

It's funny because when I read your posts a lot of time, Deborah usually comes to mind - isn't that something? It's not anything in particular that you've said, it's just that you make me think of her. I think it's because of your passion and strength - I just love it! I just love YOU!!! :)

I can kind of understand why you'd see the Pharisee argument as being such a huge generalization if you're looking from a modern perspective on religion and religious practices. However, when looking through their perspective in the time they were living and through their mindset and religious practices I see it a lot differently. The Pharisees were extremely rigid and rigorous in their beliefs and religious practices - zealous legalists, if you will. That's why Jesus upset them so much; that's why they wanted to have him killed - how DARE He call Himself the Son of God!? Blasphemy! Back in college one of my professors used to always say that they were so tied up in their legalism that they were completely blinded to the truth of who Jesus was (is). And he had this saying about the Sadducees... He'd say they were so tied up in the going through the motions that they missed the whole point - "they were very sad, you see?" LOL! I'll never forget that as long as I live. He was a good professor, a good teacher. Anyhow, they lived very, very differently back then than we do, and their "religion" was what they relied on for salvation. They believed that they needed to follow the law to a "T." We rely on Christ. From their point of view, however, the aforementioned belief that Paul being a Pharisee would lead one to believe he was married is probably spot on.

Well... Let's see where this takes us. I'm really looking forward to hearing what your hubby has to say! Thank you for asking him! If possible, can you ask him about the Church Fathers' teaching on the subject of Paul marital status, too? That'd be awesome!

Cherime, in your Jewish studies (Torah classes), has there been any discussion about this at all?

Hugs -

Nini

(\_/)
(='.'=)
(") (")*

Farmgirl Sister #1974

God gave us two hands... one to help ourselves, and one to help others!


Edited by - Ninibini on Apr 05 2012 06:40:19 AM
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Cherime
True Blue Farmgirl

1222 Posts

Cherime
Wasilla Alaska
USA
1222 Posts

Posted - Apr 05 2012 :  09:19:03 AM  Show Profile
Not about Paul specifically or Jesus, a bit out of that scope. However, since Eve was to be a helpmate, specifically to be a partner with Adam, and the other role was to be an "adversary if necessary", it stands to reason that in that role a woman would not be silent nor submissive. I think there is a time and place for each role. Since woman was to carry God's glory, it would also stand to reason that man is to protect the carrier. In the best sense of Jewish society, a husband is to treat his wife with love, regard, respect and not to demean her in any way. If a man does so, he can expect to answer for that treatment of his wife, who he is to guard and nurture, to God in a very big way no matter how he treated other people, no matter how "good" he might have been in other respects.
As with everything satan has perverted how man interacts with his wife.
I think that they are basing Paul's marital status on the assumption that in that time period most men were married in their teens and the marriages were arranged. They are assuming that he was therefore married at some point. That is an assumption that appears out of place to me as there could have been other reasons why Paul was not married. It is even possible that he had a physical defect that kept him from being considered marriage material. The thorn in the side makes we wonder about that possibility. But it is all speculation. But I truly do wonder if he interacted with any woman in an intimate fashion given his writings. They are strictly legalistic which is totally at odds with his aversion to legalism.
What is not speculation is that Jesus treated women as they should have been treated by their husbands. At no point was a woman told to sit down and be quiet. He invited Mary into the inner circle and Martha would have been welcomed had she chose. He actually spoke to the woman with the issue and did not chastise her for something that could have gotten her stoned. He did not chastise the adulterous woman, he spoke to and actually turned the woman at the well into the first evangelist.
The man is to be the head of the house as he is supposed to be the provider and protector which is his role. I think that Paul like all of us had his blind spots and women in ministry just might have been one of them.

CMF
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Ninibini
True Blue Farmgirl

7575 Posts

Nini
Pennsylvania
USA
7575 Posts

Posted - Apr 05 2012 :  10:34:48 AM  Show Profile
No, I'm sorry, I should've been more clear, Cherime. I meant was there any mention in your studies about the role of women and men, and the role of women in the church, more specifically. Having said that, however, I do get what you're saying about Jesus and women... He really did show us the true love of God. But we never really read where He allowed them to take over the discussion or preach or teach... you know what I mean? It was important they were there, that they learned, they served, and were close to Him as disciples, but it still wasn't the same with women in the church as with the Apostles. They seem to have been described more as servants and caregivers, teachers to the youth and to each other, the heart of their homes and families, but not teachers of men and preachers of the Word in church.

I have always had my own ideas about Paul's "affliction," for what it's worth. I know there's a lot of speculation that Paul's affliction was something sexual in nature, but I don't know that's so true. I think that's more of a modern-day twisted thinking assumption, because our society is so sexually focused, you know what I mean. Why does it have to be sexual? Is that really the only thing that could've been a thorn in his side afflicting him? What I truly think it was more of something to keep him humble and keep his eyes on Christ, plain and simple. For example, for me, it is this crazy heart condition I have that keeps me in check. It's a reminder of sorts, to keep ME humble and to keep Him always fresh in MY mind; something that reminds me what is truly important in life, and to remind me how precious life really is! So that's why I have a hard time believing Paul's "thorn" is necessarily a sexual issue. It could be, but who knows? Even if it was, though, surely the man had a mother - even a sister, who was mentioned in Acts 23:16. And, having been so well versed in Scripture, surely he knew and understood the importance of women in God's eyes, when we consider all of the women of the Old Testament, as mentioned earlier. Surely he would have honored them for their contributions, and not looked upon them with disdain. So, I honestly don't think it's totally a fair assessment to say he was totally oblivious to women or having experience with them. Surely he had family and the historical women of the Old Testament, at the very least. I don't believe he could've discounted them as a Pharisee. So, for me, the notion that he was out of touch or had blinders where women were concerned seems also to be a bit of a stretch, too. Wouldn't it just be so nice if we could just outright ask him? I sure am looking forward to spending some time with him in Heaven, aren't you? ;)

And I think if Paul had had a physical defect, that would've precluded him from becoming a Pharisee, wouldn't it have? There were very stringent rules and restrictions for entering the priesthood, so I'm not so sure if he had had an issue like that, that he would've been allowed to become a Pharisee.

I do agree with you, though, that certain writings reflect his Pharisaical background, but that only makes sense because he had been so well versed in the law. Jesus chose him, though, and even in his disagreements with Peter on things like circumcision, the Apostles did finally come to an understanding of what it means to truly be free from the law under Christ. In those terms, I do have to wonder why the fathers of the church didn't see women as leaders in the church in that same light. I really hope we can come to a greater understanding of this, though. It doesn't feel as though we have reached the deeper meaning behind their teaching on this subject yet. I have to wonder, though, if it might have been because Paul was so learned concerning the Torah that perhaps that was why after much prayer and debate the Apostles deferred to him on such matters. I believe all the other apostles were of the laity, but I could be wrong - I'll have to check on that. And, for that matter, perhaps it was due to his zeal and love for God and the Law that Jesus chose Saul to become Paul - perhaps Jesus wanted to ensure that the church was well grounded in Scriptural teachings? I don't think Jesus just picked Paul out of a lottery; there had to be a reason that He chose Paul. But, what are your thoughts on that, girls?

Peter does discuss the necessity of women's submission to their husbands in I Peter 3: 1- 7, "1 Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2 when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3 Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. 4 Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight. 5 For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, 6 like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers. "

So as I do see that Peter's heart is less legalistic, but his message is more that we as women have a more gentle, loving, soothing effect on her husband concerning faith, and I tend to think that is true regardless of whether or not her spouse is a believer.

All of this leads me to ponder... Perhaps just as all of us are members of the Body of Christ and complement and complete each other in Him, it might also be very true in a similar way when it comes to the Apostles and Church Fathers? In other words, perhaps each of them contribute a very necessary insight to God's will for our lives, but that each of their positions are incomplete and almost incomprehensible to us until they are tempered in the light of each other's teachings? Just a thought... Just a thought...

Soooo much to consider... Soooo much to pray about, huh? I find this very exciting, though. I love to hear you're understanding and thinking, too! I love that we all have such a heart about these things. I just love feeling your love for Jesus! So perfect, especially for this time of year and Holy-Day season!!!

I am so, so happy to have you in my life, my sisters! You are all the best! Keep it coming! Thank you! Love you!!!

Hugs -

Nini

(\_/)
(='.'=)
(") (")*


Farmgirl Sister #1974

God gave us two hands... one to help ourselves, and one to help others!


Edited by - Ninibini on Apr 05 2012 10:38:08 AM
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LadyInRed
True Blue Farmgirl

6740 Posts

PeggyAnn
Vancouver WA
USA
6740 Posts

Posted - Apr 05 2012 :  10:46:05 AM  Show Profile
I did find out that if Paul was a member of The Sanhedrin...then he would have had to be married. So, that
is why some people believe he must have been married. Do we know for sure he was?...not for sure...but since he was at The Stoning of Stephen, scholars assume he was. I don't like assumptions (because we know what they say about assumptions) but...I guess we can agree that maybe he had been married...or not. I see no difinitive, clear cut answer on that. But does it really matter in the whole scheme of our Christian faith? Not really! But I had used his singleness to back up my own beliefs about Paul. So, I will agree
that I am unsure about using that stand in the future (Paul being single and thus not knowing always how
to deal with women).

That is all I have learned, still need to talk to my hubby about the Greek.

Cherime...I liked the things you shared also. Very insightful! I think Paul's thorn in the flesh may
have been eye problems from when he was blinded on the road to Amaus. But again...the scripture is not
clear cut on it...so we can only assume right?

blessings,
peggy

Farmgirl #1326
http://ladyinredsite.blogspot.com

"Leave Your Cares Behind...Join Us On The Porch"

"I'm only as strong as the caffeine I drink, the hair-spray I use and the Girlfriends that I have."

When I was a lonely wallflower, Jesus asked me to dance. Then he asked me to be His!
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Cherime
True Blue Farmgirl

1222 Posts

Cherime
Wasilla Alaska
USA
1222 Posts

Posted - Apr 05 2012 :  12:06:32 PM  Show Profile
The Pharisees were not part of the priesthood unless the particular pharisee in question was a Levite. The Pharisees were just a different sect of Judaism sort of like the difference between Baptists and Lutherans. I am not hinting that he had a sexual dysfunction, in fact I never hear of that particular take on things, but any deformity could have been off putting for the purposes of marriage. Remember that sacrifices had to be without blemish or spot. And it certainly could have been his eyes.
As to the matter of teaching, our Jewish Torah teacher is a member of a synagogue up here, a teacher and a woman. She was also a Jewish chaplain in a hospital in New York state. Her Rabbi is well aware of her teaching and feels that God has called her to educate the gentiles as to the Torah.
As a practical matter some Jewish sects do not allow women to be ordained as Rabbis however one or two do now. I think that it is possible that the matter of a woman not teaching comes down more to the attitude of the men who would be taught than the women doing the teaching.


CMF
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Ninibini
True Blue Farmgirl

7575 Posts

Nini
Pennsylvania
USA
7575 Posts

Posted - Apr 05 2012 :  1:51:22 PM  Show Profile
Oh my WORD! You girls are SO right! It very well could've been his eyesight! Why on earth have I never seen or heard that before!!! YES! Thank you!!!! Cherime, over the years, I have been told many times in different studies and classes that Paul's thorn was a sexual affliction, which I absolutely never bought into at all. I actually had started to think that most people thought this way. I'm really glad to know I'm not alone in my thinking! :)

And Cherime, you're right! The Pharisees were more of a political party or a religious sect. But any Jew from any tribe could have been a Pharisee, and some priests (Levites) were Pharisees. Paul was not a Priest because he was not a Levite; he was from the tribe of Benjamin. I was trying to do too many things at once when I typed that, and just wasn't thinking... I'm sorry! Brain overload! LOL! In general, the Pharisees were scribes and members of the ruling class who were part of the Sanhedrin (judges of Israel) who controlled the synagogues. It is my understanding that due to their stringent adherence to the law would any "blemish" on their personhood in any form would have precluded them from being a Pharisee. They were extreme legalists and observers of tradition. The Pharisees were a formidable force not only to the Jews but in the eyes of Rome as well! Paul's referral to the Sanhedrin as "brothers and fathers" in Acts 23:1 implies that he probably was part of the Sanhedrin, but, like you said, Peggy - we can only assume, and we do know what that means! ;)

Girls - As I'm sure many of us are, we are starting the Easter celebration as of tonight (Easter Triduum), and my parents will be here soon. This means so much to me that you are taking the time to discuss this with me and share everything, and I don't want you to feel bad if I don't get to answer right away from now through Easter. I'll try to pop in whenever I have the chance! :) Other than that, I may not really "see" you all again until Monday, okay? I'm really looking forward to it! :)

Have a blessed, blessed Easter, everyone! Love you, my sisters!

Nini

(\_/)
(='.'=)
(") (")*

Farmgirl Sister #1974

God gave us two hands... one to help ourselves, and one to help others!


Edited by - Ninibini on Apr 05 2012 1:52:20 PM
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Calicogirl
True Blue Farmgirl

5216 Posts

Sharon
Bruce Crossing Michigan
USA
5216 Posts

Posted - Apr 05 2012 :  2:08:09 PM  Show Profile
Good afternoon Ladies!

I thought I would add my two cents too. Please know that this is out of love and concern for the truth to be brought forth.

~I think we first need to establish that God’s word is inerrant, that it is holy and inspired by God, both Old and New Testament. (2 Timothy 3:16 -17 All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work. ) Scripture trumps personal experience, personal opinion, denomination, traditions and speculation.


~We need to test all things in accordance to God’s word. (Despite my honey being a Pastor, I still test what he says with God’s word – not showing him disrespect but showing my love for the Lord and His truth, being obedient to scripture) (Acts 17:11
And these were more noble than those of Thessalonica, in that they received the-word with all readiness of mind and searched the Scriptures daily to see if those things were so. )


~Context. What is the proper context of scripture, to include cultural and historical context. It is always good practice to follow the 20/20 rule. Read 20 verses prior and 20 verses after. It’s easy to run away with a certain scripture to try and validate our agendas.

~Inductive Bible Study. This is also where our context comes in. Most people are familiar with the name Kay Arthur. Her method of teaching is called the Inductive Bible Study. It is where we learn Observation (the who, what, why, when, where and how), Interpretation (understanding God’s word) and Application (applying God’s word to our lives) (Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be on precept; precept on precept, line on line, line on line; here a little, there a little; )

With that being said, I just want to clarify a couple of things that have been mentioned :)

Women speaking in the church

And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at home; for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1 Corinthians 14:35


The women :) We need to look at the cultural context of this verse. What is the culture during this time, this place. For women to be outspoken was a form of vanity and boldness contrary to the bashfulness of the sex. It was seen as a disgrace.

~How do you think your husband would feel if you were to ask another (at church) a question pertaining to Biblical matters?

I think it would discourage him, cause him to think that he is inadequate at training up his wife and teaching her. Perhaps making him feel that she doesn’t trust him or value his opinions, or thoughts. We are to build up our husbands, to encourage them, to make sure that they are head of the home as God intended. What better way to build them up by seeking their knowledge in the Lord.
The men being the head of the home doesn’t mean that they do not show respect for us or discredit what we have to say. Afterall they are to love us unconditionally (agape) and we are to love them with brotherly love (phileo) :)


Paul’s Marital Status

Paul was a Pharisee and a member of the San Hedrin.
The following Jewish website that lays out historical and Biblical OT the qualifications required to be a member of the San Hedrin Council:

http://www.aish.com/jl/m/pm/48936377.html

This is not necessarily my endorsement of the website however, it is accurate in regards to the subject.

This is a good area that demonstrates the necessity of gaining both historical and cultural contexts as well as precedence set in scripture that Paul lays out in his example and answer.



By His Grace, For His Glory
~Sharon

Edited by - Calicogirl on Apr 05 2012 2:09:02 PM
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Cherime
True Blue Farmgirl

1222 Posts

Cherime
Wasilla Alaska
USA
1222 Posts

Posted - Apr 05 2012 :  9:29:26 PM  Show Profile
Absolutely the cultural context matters. I guess that is one other thing that I was trying to bring out. And yes, all scripture, both old and new testament is God breathed and good for edification. But there were changes in the culture through out the years that changed how people related to each other. Not all change is good and not all is bad. But one can absolutely for a certainty know that satan will pervert whatever he can in order to undermine the church and malign the good character of God. The religious spirit is a great killer of faith. It constrains, it binds and hinders the kingdom of God at every turn. And as Paul himself said, "what I would not do, I do". The important thing is our relationship with our Father and our heart. If the heart is good then we will always turn to our God and upset the schemes of satan.

CMF
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LadyInRed
True Blue Farmgirl

6740 Posts

PeggyAnn
Vancouver WA
USA
6740 Posts

Posted - Apr 05 2012 :  11:33:03 PM  Show Profile
Sharon...once going on the Torah Website...I am even more convinced that Paul was not a member of
the Sanhedrin. It said that you had to be of Jewish parentage. Paul's father was Jewish but his
mother was Roman. I also believe that Paul was younger than the age of 40 at the Stoning of Stephen,
he was standing by holding the coats of those doing the stoning. I believe this is because of his
age and not being able to participate. I do believe that his father was a member of the Pharisees.

Anyway...more food for thought.

blessings,
peggy

Farmgirl #1326
http://ladyinredsite.blogspot.com

"Leave Your Cares Behind...Join Us On The Porch"

"I'm only as strong as the caffeine I drink, the hair-spray I use and the Girlfriends that I have."

When I was a lonely wallflower, Jesus asked me to dance. Then he asked me to be His!
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Ninibini
True Blue Farmgirl

7575 Posts

Nini
Pennsylvania
USA
7575 Posts

Posted - Apr 06 2012 :  07:31:17 AM  Show Profile
Sharon, thank you! I love the website! I printed it out - SO interesting! And that Scripture was one of the first I had memorized when I committed myself to Christ as an early adult (studying The Navigators Bible Study at the time!). My son had recalled that same passage to me in the car yesterday when we were discussing this topic! Thank you! "Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses." I Cor 13:1. I believe the Lord is speaking to me directly in this. I am humbled and grateful! :)

I think in order to be of "Jewish parentage," you have to look at the father, not necessarily the mother. In today's state of Israel, the child of a non-Jewish mother is still considered Jewish through his or her father's identity. Wouldn't it be the same in Jesus' time? Jesus' lineage included non-Jewish mothers, after all, and they were even acknowledged in his genealogy outlined by Matthew! There was no question that he was considered a Jew!

I'm not so sure Paul's mother was ever defined as a non-Jew, though. Paul's Roman citizenship could've been declared even if his parents were both Jews. It is just not likely that a Jew would claim to be a Roman citizen, of course. But given the opportunities that would've opened up for Paul as a witness and in saving him during difficulties... I don't know.

I don't know whether he would not have been allowed to be a Pharisee had he not had two Jewish parents. He was definitely a Pharisee, though, and a son of a Pharisee. Acts 23:6 states, "Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead."

I do believe we can agree now, however, that Paul, if he was a member of the Sanhedrin (which I tend to believe he was, explained below) had to have been married at one time, as this article states, "A person who is very old may not sit on the Sanhedrin, since he is apt to be too severe. The same is true of a man who is sterile, or EVEN CHILDLESSNESS [emphasis mine]. A Sanhedrin containing any such member is not validly constituted. Therefore, if a member becomes very old or sexually maimed, he must be replaced." We must remember that just because Scripture doesn't specify his marriage and that he had children doesn't mean he didn't. John points out in John 21:25, "Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written." So, we must understand that not everything made it into the Bible. I think we can understand that in the context of the time, a lot of these questions were not questions but rather understoond - "givens," if you will - because people just knew it to be fact. For us, it's not that simple, though, because we weren't there. Perhaps this understanding of Sanhedrin requirements also is why so many people perpetuate the belief that Paul's thorn was sexual, but given the requirement of purity in order to be a Pharisee, I would say that belief would be incorrect. I would also venture that the "purity" issue for Pharisee could also be an issue as far as lineage, in which case, Paul would qualify as a Sanhedrin.

And then in Acts 23:6, when he has been arrested and is on trial before the Sanhedrin, he calls them "brothers" and has an unusual familiarity with them, which is why many believe he was indeed a member of the Sanhedrin. Acts 7:58, when discussing the judgment of Stephen says "dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their clothes at the feet of a young man named Saul." This was something done in honor of the Sanhedrin. Further in Acts 8:1, it talks about how Paul gave his approval of killing Stephen, which also would have been indicative of his power as a Sanhedrin. He also discusses his authority received from and voting power as part of the chief priests in Acts 26:10: "And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests I put many of the saints in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them." I realize the Bible doesn't specify and that there is a lot of speculation about Paul's status, so I guess we really don't know; but to me, based on these Scriptures, it seems he most likely was.

I think Sharon's point, though, is extremely important. The Bible is God's Word, and therefore inerrant. It's THE final authority in determining matters. If it's in there, it's in there for a reason, even if it sometimes makes us uncomfortable. It's our human nature that spurns confusion, not God's Word. If we try to re-shape the Bible based on what we think, we're making a huge mistake. Throughout history we see man leaning on his own understanding and getting into a lot of trouble in the process. Proverbs 3:5-8 says, "5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;6 in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight. 7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and shun evil. 8 This will bring health to your body and nourishment to your bones." I just love ALL of Proverbs 3!

The Bible is supposed to shape US, not vice versa. True, religion can be reshaped over time based on revelation from the Holy Spirit; but God's word is still the determining factor as to whether that revelation does in fact come from the Holy Spirit. It's the measuring rod. That's why it is so important that we are steeped in Scripture and memorize Its verses and understand Its context.

Well... gotta run. Busy, busy day. I'll try to check in later on!

Hugs -

Nini

(\_/)
(='.'=)
(") (")*

Farmgirl Sister #1974

God gave us two hands... one to help ourselves, and one to help others!


Edited by - Ninibini on Apr 06 2012 07:39:11 AM
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Cherime
True Blue Farmgirl

1222 Posts

Cherime
Wasilla Alaska
USA
1222 Posts

Posted - Apr 06 2012 :  09:39:13 AM  Show Profile
Regarding being Jewish, during the times of exile, it was determined by Jewish elders that they would determine who was Jewish by the mother as well as the father due to the number of women who were raped. In that manner they could definitely state who was of Jewish descent because you almost always knew who your mother was. In fact now if my grandmother was a Jew I could probably apply for citizenship and allyah to Israel.
Paul was able to claim dual citizenship as his father could prove he was of the tribe of Benjamin by tracing his line back and because his mother was Roman he was able to claim that as well.
All Jews were considered to be brothers as they were ultimately children of God which made them brothers in the same way Christians are brothers and sisters.
the Bible is the ultimate in deciding what is what. It contains the law and the prophets but the spirit of the law is the important thing that the Jews missed, that heart attitude of love for all.
The important thing here is that a man was to love, nurture and care for his wife as Jesus cared for us, sufficient to die for her and a wife was to love, nurture, respect and care for her husband in the same manner. Therefore it seems to me that not allowing a spouse to exercise a gift given to them by God himself does not love, nurture nor respect the individual being denied usage of a God given gift.

CMF
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Cherime
True Blue Farmgirl

1222 Posts

Cherime
Wasilla Alaska
USA
1222 Posts

Posted - Apr 07 2012 :  06:24:32 AM  Show Profile
Before I forget, I was given to understand that the genealogy records were lost when the last temple was destroyed by the Romans.

CMF
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Ninibini
True Blue Farmgirl

7575 Posts

Nini
Pennsylvania
USA
7575 Posts

Posted - Apr 08 2012 :  10:14:01 AM  Show Profile
Hi Girls! Happy, Blessed Easter to you all!!!

I'm honestly not so sure that Paul’s citizenship relied on his mother being a Roman, though, Cherime.

Acts 16:37: But Paul said to the officers: "They beat us publicly without a trial, even though we are Roman citizens, and threw us into prison. And now do they want to get rid of us quietly? No! Let them come themselves and escort us out."

Acts 22:3: “I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. I studied under Gamaliel and was thoroughly trained in the law of our ancestors. I was just as zealous for God as any of you are today.

Acts 22:25: As they stretched him out to flog him, Paul said to the centurion standing there, "Is it legal for you to flog a Roman citizen who hasn't even been found guilty?"

Acts 22:26: When the centurion heard this, he went to the commander and reported it. "What are you going to do?" he asked. "This man is a Roman citizen."

Acts 22:28: Then the commander said, "I had to pay a big price for my citizenship." "But I was born a citizen," Paul replied.

Acts 23:27: When the centurion heard this, he went to the commander and reported it. "What are you going to do?" he asked. "This man is a Roman citizen."

Paul also explains in Phillipians 3:3 – 6: “3 For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh—4 though I myself have reasons for such confidence. If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.”

I had to look this up to be sure, because we had briefly studied about this two years in homeschool, but I wanted to be sure: Tarsus of Cilicia became part of the Roman Empire, a Roman province, in 66 BC under Pompey the Great. You can find a lot of information concerning this on the web, of course, but if you visit, the Wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarsus,_Mersin you will find reliable information on this subject, which can be cross-referenced and validated elsewhere. I don’t usually like to cite Wikipedia, but because this information can be validated elsewhere, I am directing you this link.

So, what I’m getting from these Scriptures and historical references is that Paul was born a Jew, as he was a Pharisee, but he was also born a Roman citizen. OH! And I don't think a Pharisee could've been married to a non-Jew, because of purity issues, therefore, I honestly don't believe Paul's mother, who was married to a Pharisee, could've been a Roman and not a Jew.

You're absolutely right, Cherime, men are to love their wives as themselves, as Christ loves the Church. Ephesians 5:22-33: "22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband."

No doubt about that at all, sister! I'm with you - this is extremely important! Amen! I would never advocate that ANYONE - man or woman - quench a gifts and promptings of the Holy Spirit in ANYONE! That's just something I loved reading about the men in your church, Peggy - how they deferred to what the Lord was saying to your heart about teaching that class over their plans which were already in place! That was awesome to see men humbling themselves before the Lord's will like that! Awesome!!! My concern, rather, is simply that in all matters of interpretation and understanding we heed 2 Timothy 3:16 -17, as Sharon pointed out, rather than our personal feelings or what the world tells us, that's all.

Hugs - and Joyful Easter Blessings to All!

Nini

(\_/)
(='.'=)
(") (")*


Farmgirl Sister #1974

God gave us two hands... one to help ourselves, and one to help others!


Edited by - Ninibini on Apr 08 2012 10:17:51 AM
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LadyInRed
True Blue Farmgirl

6740 Posts

PeggyAnn
Vancouver WA
USA
6740 Posts

Posted - Apr 08 2012 :  2:35:02 PM  Show Profile
Nini...very good...that answered all my questions, doubts and comments. Thanks for the research Sister.
Case closed for me. It has been a thrilling decussion though don't you think?

OK...I think we can now move on!

Hugs and Easter Blessings,
peggy

Farmgirl #1326
http://ladyinredsite.blogspot.com

"Leave Your Cares Behind...Join Us On The Porch"

"I'm only as strong as the caffeine I drink, the hair-spray I use and the Girlfriends that I have."

When I was a lonely wallflower, Jesus asked me to dance. Then he asked me to be His!

Edited by - LadyInRed on Apr 08 2012 2:36:45 PM
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buffypuff
True Blue Farmgirl

1183 Posts

Claudia
Deer Park WA
USA
1183 Posts

Posted - Apr 08 2012 :  4:02:54 PM  Show Profile
I've been reading and very silent. It has been interesting...but before the day is over, may I say...Blessed Easter and a Good Passover +1. On the way home from church this morning, we listened to a bit of Rick Warren being interviewed. The subject was different than this one, but he said that too many people were showing anger these days. His philosophy, after stating that Jesus is the Son of God and the only way to the Father, the Bible being correct etc., was that...."We can disagree without being disagreeable. We can walk hand in hand without seeing eye to eye." It gave me an awesome feeling. May we try to see Jesus always with us, & in every relationship and every discussion. Blessings to all you Godly women!

Buffypuff/ Claudia ~ Farmgirl Sister #870 @}~~
"God sends no one away empty except those who are full of themselves." DL Moody


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Ninibini
True Blue Farmgirl

7575 Posts

Nini
Pennsylvania
USA
7575 Posts

Posted - Apr 08 2012 :  6:14:24 PM  Show Profile
I'm with you, Peggy! LOL!!! But yes, it was a great discussion - SO glad to have all of you to discuss it with!

Claudia - You never have to be silent! We're all sisters here! You always have such great things to contribute!!!

So.... How was everyone's Easter? What did you all do????

Nini

(\_/)
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(") (")*

Farmgirl Sister #1974

God gave us two hands... one to help ourselves, and one to help others!

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smiley
True Blue Farmgirl

650 Posts

lea
pea ridge arkansas
USA
650 Posts

Posted - Apr 08 2012 :  6:55:28 PM  Show Profile
I just saw on the internet Thomas Kinkade the painter died today of natural causes at the age of 54!That is so young. What a talent he had and shared. I loved his paintings.
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ceejay48
Farmgirl Legend/Schoolmarm/Sharpshooter

13370 Posts

CeeJay (CJ)
Dolores Colorado
USA
13370 Posts

Posted - Apr 09 2012 :  05:53:43 AM  Show Profile  Send ceejay48 a Yahoo! Message
"Seek first His kingdom and His righteousness and all
these things will be given to you as well".
Matthew 6:33


..from the barefoot farmgirl in SW Colorado...sister chick #665.
2010 Farmgirl Sister of the Year
Mother Hen: FARMGIRLS SOUTHWEST HENHOUSE

living life - www.snippetscja.blogspot.com

from my hands - www.cjscreations-ceejay.blogspot.com

the "Purple Thistle" http://www.ceejay48.etsy.com

from my heart - www.fromacelticheart.blogspot.com

from my hubby - www.aspenforge.blogspot.com

Edited by - ceejay48 on Apr 11 2012 9:42:00 PM
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LadyInRed
True Blue Farmgirl

6740 Posts

PeggyAnn
Vancouver WA
USA
6740 Posts

Posted - Apr 09 2012 :  06:33:53 AM  Show Profile
Lea...that is very sad about Thomas Kinkade. I have a large lithograph of one his paintings
framed and hanging above my fireplace and several smaller Lighthouse pictures of his. Though
I loved his work the Market became much too saturated with his paintings for my personal liking.
After awhile it just kind of became nausiating but I do love the few pieces I have collected.
He was a brilliant artist that became a bit obsessive in marketing his talent. But no one can
deny that as the Painter Of Light, no one mastered it more beautifully than he did. It was a
totally God given talent. Let's all remember to pray for his family at this time. Even though
his death is listed from Natural causes, he died in his home at age 54...so an Autopsy has been
scheduled.

blessings,
peggy



Farmgirl #1326
http://ladyinredsite.blogspot.com

"Leave Your Cares Behind...Join Us On The Porch"

"I'm only as strong as the caffeine I drink, the hair-spray I use and the Girlfriends that I have."

When I was a lonely wallflower, Jesus asked me to dance. Then he asked me to be His!
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Cherime
True Blue Farmgirl

1222 Posts

Cherime
Wasilla Alaska
USA
1222 Posts

Posted - Apr 09 2012 :  08:42:01 AM  Show Profile
How terrible about T. Kinkade. I really enjoyed his art.
Just as a side note, in Hebrew studies this last Sunday evening, we were reminded about God's plan for marriage. Abraham always put up Sarah's tent first and men were expected to take business matters home and discuss them with their wives as the wife is the other half of the husband. Hebrew women also are given a katuba (spelling?) which is a marriage contract. And one other thing that was mentioned is that God specified that converts were to be treated as fully Jew. If an outsider converted they became a Jew no questions asked.
We are presently studying Exodus having taken 3 years to get through Genesis. Our teacher is hoping it won't take quite so long for Exodus. Right now we are at Mr. Sinai and the giving of Torah.
Blessings all. How very glad I am that He Is Risen!

CMF
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Ninibini
True Blue Farmgirl

7575 Posts

Nini
Pennsylvania
USA
7575 Posts

Posted - Apr 09 2012 :  09:30:21 AM  Show Profile
Oh, how sad! But what a wonderful joy it must be for Mr. Kinkade to enter Heaven on the day that the earth celebrates our Lord's Resurrection! May God bless, protect, comfort and help his family during this difficult time!

Cherime - I wish soooo badly I could be there to study with you, sister! You have taught me so much! I bet it is such an exciting and enlightening study! What a blessing! Thank you for sharing what you've learned! I'd love to hear more - anytime! :)

Happy day!

Nini



Farmgirl Sister #1974

God gave us two hands... one to help ourselves, and one to help others!

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Cherime
True Blue Farmgirl

1222 Posts

Cherime
Wasilla Alaska
USA
1222 Posts

Posted - Apr 09 2012 :  3:14:26 PM  Show Profile
Nini since you are interested, we learned that the account in the KJ version is just a bit off. Moses went up the mountain 3 different times and as the chapter ended God (in Hebrew they use G_D or another name Hashem which refers to the mercy aspect of His character) had just instructed Moses to go and warn the people not to enter the boundaries set up for their safety and to bring Aaron up the mountain when he came back. Next Sunday is going to be interesting.

CMF
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FieldsofThyme
Farmgirl Guide & Schoolmarm / Chapter Leader

4928 Posts



USA
4928 Posts

Posted - Apr 10 2012 :  07:23:48 AM  Show Profile
We didn't have an Easter meal here this year, but I may be driving out with my mother, to see the sand sculpture again this year. Hopefully, the weather will hold until we see it this week.

Info on what I'm talking about: http://www.walkingoncommonground.com/



Farmgirl #800
http://pioneerwomanatheart.blogspot.com/

http://scrapreusedandrecycledartprojects.blogspot.com/

From my hands: http://pioneerpatchworkhomespun.blogspot.com/

From my Camera: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pioneerwomanatheart/
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Calicogirl
True Blue Farmgirl

5216 Posts

Sharon
Bruce Crossing Michigan
USA
5216 Posts

Posted - Apr 10 2012 :  07:26:24 AM  Show Profile
Good Morning Ladies!

I pray that everyone had a most Blessed Resurrection Day rejoicing in our Risen Lord and Savior!

Nini, thanks so much for all of the research you did. I just did not have time this weekend to post due to Resurrection Day and preps and we just recently moved into a new church building. I was going to post all that you did :)

I just wanted to make sure that everyone knows that I was not trying to be divisive only wanting to point out how important context is in studying our Bibles and as Nini agreed that we do need to heed 2 Timothy 3:16-17. And to be like the Bereans. There are so many great apologist websites out there that will also show you false teachers that we need to be aware of. If anyone is interested in these sites I would be more than happy to post links. These are sites that are not based on the writers opinions but only by testing these things against the word of God and often there are links back to teachings and writings from these false teachers.

Anyway :)

I pray that everyone has a beautiful day in the Lord!

By His Grace, For His Glory
~Sharon
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Ninibini
True Blue Farmgirl

7575 Posts

Nini
Pennsylvania
USA
7575 Posts

Posted - Apr 10 2012 :  09:05:18 AM  Show Profile
Hi girls!

Kristina - there is a man who does similar sand sculptures out in Ocean City every year. They are absolutely breathtaking! Where do you drive out to see them? I live near Pittsburgh - maybe if it's not too far, we could go see them, too!!!!

Thank you, Sharon - I would LOVE to have those sites for reference. That'd be so great! Congrats on the move! I hope settling in will go smoothly! There must be tons of sorting and filing, huh? I feel for you! :)

I don't feel anyone was being divisive or disagreeable at all! I surely hope and pray I wasn't taken that way, either! It never even occurred to me! If you could hear my voice, you would know to the core of your being that everything I speak is in love and concern. I learned a lot in this last discussion - it forced me to confront some of my own misunderstandings, and it helped me gain a clearer picture of things. I shared what I found because I thought you would find it important and interesting, too. I'm no authority, nor would I ever claim to be! I find our conversations extremely exciting, and I am extremely, extremely grateful! We need to share our understanding, knowledge and findings... That's what helps us to grow! Interpretation will always be a toughie, I know. We're not always going to get it right or see eye-to-eye, like Claudia said. That's okay! I am just extremely grateful that we all have each other and are able to have these discussions because they really do help broaden our understanding in the Lord. You all are treasures to me! Absolute treasures! :)

Have a blessed day!

Hugs,

Nini

Farmgirl Sister #1974

God gave us two hands... one to help ourselves, and one to help others!

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